Questions!! I have QUESTIONS :D

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

I recently joined Sounis and well...I've just had so many questions, there is a good chance that they have all been throughly discussed already, but who doesn't love a good discussion?

The Theif
1. Gen says something about how his father came into the library and asked him if he knew about Sounis's purposal to Eddis, and then MoW leaves, leaving a bag of coins on Gen's desk. The scene is pretty vague. Did MoW want Gen to go out and find the H-gift? Is this when MoW accepts that Gen is a theif?

2. Gen says the magus couldn't possibly have known if he had a sweetheart because he changed his records...does this allude the possiblity that he has? had a sweetheart/s that is? Its a stupid question, I mean I dont think he has, but I think it was possible that everyone in Eddis's court expected a courtship with the Queen's cousin Agape?

KoA
1. In the Theif and QoA Gen is pretty pissed about Sounis trying marry Eddis but in the King, Gen actually suggests it.(that Eddis marry Sounis) WHY?

Eddis also asks the Magus himself, her reasoning is because Gen is the KING of Attolia. Does that pose a threat to her?

2. Gen goes into the prison cell to see Relius
a. He shouts "I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT" is Gen messing with Teleus, or is he honestly upset?

b. Later when his Eddisian cousins come they ask "did he think that was the king of attolia talking" what do they mean? Did Gen say it out of anger, was it actually the Theif of Eddis talking?

c. Possible Relius and Attolia? (one sided of course)
Gen says to Relius 'you must hate her now' he seems pretty serious and almost hopeful (not sure exactly about the quote), was Gen actually hoping Relius would hate attolia?
in one scene he also kisses Attolia and laughs asking Rel if he's jealous (I'm assuming its because he gets to kiss the queen? but being Gen he kisses Rel on the head too :)

There is point when one of the Attolians brings up Gen's cousins and how they held him down in a catchet of water until he insulted his family...Ornon says something like "they didnt know how close to danger they had come"
would Gen actually have him executed? I dont think so, but then what possible danger could Gen have posed?

Oh and at the end of KOA Gen apologizes to Teleus for "what was done but not done well" or something like that...but I think he's done pretty well...so why apologize?

Comments

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

1) Yes. It means he knew Gen could help, and was giving him the chance.
2) Most likely not....

KOA
2) a) Probably both. >.>

XD *is useless*

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

Nifty icon!

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

RELIUS AND ATTOLIA NO YOU ARE NOT SEEING THINGS IT'S THERE, I PROMISE. :-D :-D :-D

you are my new favorite newbie just for that. :-b

dunno if Gen wants Relius to HATE Attolia though. That's a little strong.


also I don't think when Gen says I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT that he is saying it as anyone other than Eugenides, apart from all his titles. I think it's an expression of his frustration with his circumstances--as king, he just can't do everything that he used to be able to do, and he misses that.

also have to go write a paper.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

also have to go write a paper.
OMG ME TOOOOOO!! JAAAAAADE, MAKE ME WRITE MY PAAAAAAPERRRR!!! *whine*

[keestone.livejournal.com]

soooo many footnotes. Did I mention I hate footnotes?

I question my sanity every day.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

OMG I hateeee papers....okay I don't hate them. But they do get annoying. Especially research papers...research papers on, say, ancient Roman art. blech


OMG I NEW I WASN'T JUST SEEING THINGS! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!! lol

I don't mean actual hate, just you know the whole "You don't love her like I do.." but then I think Gen ends up with respect for Rel and his love for Attolia, so it's all good

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Oh fun! Questions!

KoA 2 a--I thought Gen was tremendously upset because he came *this* close to having Teleus and the prison guard and whoever else he hated at the moment executed, and it hit him how much power he really has, and how easy it would be to abuse it. People have to do what he says now that he's king. He really can do pretty much anything he wants as king, and he doesn't like that one bit. Every decision he makes has huge ramifications and he could lose his temper in an instant and someone could die because of it.

And KoA 2 b--the cousins knew it wasn't the King of Attolia saying he could do anything he wants, or even the Thief of Eddis. It was Gen, who has always done whatever he wanted, even when they were kids together. It was their way of saying, "huh, he hasn't changed one bit, has he?"

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Wow, That really makes sense
It's a point where gen realizes how much power he has, and the mistakes he can make...wow, he reeeally must have empathized with Irene at that moment

It's crazy how much self control he has to have now...instead of being tackless mouth-running gen. *hugstheifGen*

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Icon win! love that show, so sad the season's ending today... :-(

TT

1) Yes, he did. Gen's father is a man of few words, and telling Gen the situation and giving him the gold he would need to solve it pretty much amounts to him standing on the roof of Eddis' palace shouting, "GEN YOU GET OVER THERE TO SOUNIS AND GET THAT STUPID ROCK MOVE MOVE MOVE"

2) Gen didn't just change the records, he wrote them. I don't think he even thought to add a sweetheart into the records, so the Magus was confused when he claimed he had one. I enjoyed how "sweetheart" became a replacement for "Eddis" throughout that conversation. :-)

KoA

1) I think if you reread the passage you'll find your answer. The best marriage for Helen would have been Sophos, a close relative of the king who didn't drive her up the wall. But even when Sophos was gone, Helen needed to marry, and her husband had to be Sounisian. The alliance with Attolia was strong enough because of Eugenides, but Sounis remained out of the alliance loop. Sounis was the next best choice. As to your question about the KING of Attolia, think about the characters - Attolia and Eugenides are both political geniuses, and once Gen gets used to kingship he'll be a very strong king (Annux), probably the strongest out of the four rulers. This leaves Eddis and Sounis in an interesting position. The rule of Attolia is generally stable, while both of them have to deal with problems in the succession and Mede invaders. Attolia could easily become the center of an empire if Attolia and Gen felt it was best politically to take over Sounis and Eddis. "He will make decisions in the best interests of countries, not individuals, no matter how much he might love them."

2)a) honestly upset. Teleus is questioning him, and Eugenides is just plain fed up. He's tired, he's hurt, and he's in the very prison where he lost his hand. I'm of the opinion that it's not much more than that.
b) I think it's a common refrain of Eugenides' that he can do anything he wants. As the Thief, he probably could. But it's a very kingly thing for him to say, and could have been misunderstood by Teleus.
c) Heck yes. I am a huge fan of one-sided Attolia/Relius. But I don't think Gen wants Relius to hate Attolia - he wants him to realize that the best thing for Attolia is for her to have someone to trust, and that there are very few people that she does. There's also the far more personal message that yes, Eugenides married her, and there's nothing Relius can do about it. Subtly, but it's there.

3) There are all manner of things Gen could have done. They would all have been nasty and compared to some of them execution would have been a mercy.

4) He hasn't done that well, actually, neither by his standards nor Teleus'. To Teleus, he has failed at gaining the loyalty of his subjects and it was not until Costis interfered (the sparring match Costis forced Gen into) that it came into the light that he was a brilliant and at times even charismatic ruler. Eugenides, however, also feels that he has failed. He now has to be a king, like it or not. I'm curious to see if that will throw a wrench in his and Costis' friendship, as Costis contributed to bringing that about.

Hope that helps!!!

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

*dies laughing of imagining the MoW as a drill sergeant*

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Wow. I just love you for that:

Gen's father is a man of few words, and telling Gen the situation and giving him the gold he would need to solve it pretty much amounts to him standing on the roof of Eddis' palace shouting, "GEN YOU GET OVER THERE TO SOUNIS AND GET THAT STUPID ROCK MOVE MOVE MOVE"

Imagining MoW saying that has been making me LOL all day :]

Oh, I hope not, I think Gen would actually thank Costis for what he's done! You know? Helping him make his point and come to terms with his Kingship and whatnot. He'd probably have an awful way of showing his graditude though *imagines Costis running after Gen: "Nooo your magesty! YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY DO THAT" "SHUT UP COSTIS I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT. SO THERE. YOU ARE GOING TO BE A MEDE FIGHTING NINJA FROM NOW ON!"
I do love Costis, he's the one I turn to for a moral compass in the books :]

Thanks for clearing up #1. It makes so much more sense now, the loop in the alliance. I just remember thinking 'why would he say that!" it make so much more sense now! :D I can't wait for CoK oh, wish I had it right now..!!

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

TLE you and your Soldier!MoW crack me up.
XDDD

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

It's been too long since I read The Thief, so I'm not sure there...

For the King of Attolia questions...
1) Yes--Gen's status as King of Attolia is kind of a threat. His #1 loyalty used to be Helen, and now it's the kingdom of Attolia. I remember at some point the Magus and Eddis having an uncomfortable conversation (in QoA maybe?) about how now Attolia has an exceptionally strong executive branch, between Gen and Irene, and how the power structure of the entire region had been realigned.
2) I would agree with Checkers. I remember it being implied that "I can do anything I want!" was a phrase anyone who grew up with Gen was very familiar with. And I think he responded to Teleus on instinct, the way he does when *anyone* tries to tell him what he can or can't do.
2c)Relius certainly loves the queen, but maybe in a hero-worship way more than a romantic way. I took from that scene that Relius now loves Gen as well, and will serve them both given a chance. Or maybe Gen was just being funny?
2d) In The Thief Gen says outright that he hates killing people, doesn't want to kill people, and for that reason does not want to be a soldier. I don't think he would have actually executed them, but it's possible he might have done something he regretted (or let the Queen do something he would have regretted) if he was angry enough. This story is from the perspective of people around Gen, and they come to realize that Gen is extremely unpredictable, and prone to getting what he wants. Ornon knows him better than your average Attolian, but he also knows very well that Gen has a vicious temper. In the end, I don't think he would have done them any violence unless they'd done something much worse than insult him.

These are great questions--I hadn't realized just how much Gen had changed since The Thief. What do you think?

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I think he apologized for Teleus for trying to get him fired when it wasn't necessary. Which confused me--I never understood why he thought getting rid of Teleus would be easier than getting Teleus on his side...

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Gen has no doubt changed soooo much since the Theif! It's ridiculously amazing charactization and character developement!
I wish we had prequal or something from before Eddis and mwt has already written two. *crosses fingers* maybe there'll be one in the CoKs paperback :Dd

[octopirock.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I'm making it up, but somewhere I remember being told that the being the Thief of Eddis comes with the absolute power to do whatever you want, which is connected to the fact that they do not answer to the ruler of Eddis, and if they decide that it is in the best interest of the country to dispose of the ruler they can. So my interpretation of that line is that he is angry that they don't realize just how powerful he was in the past, and that no one is taking him seriously. I could have totally fabricated that though.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

But it's his own (stupid) fault that they're not taking him seriously. :-)

Unless my memory is completely messed up (which is entirely possible--I blame finals) Gen's "absolute power" (as you call it) is discussed in the scene of Eddis' and the Magus's conversation in KoA, just before the oft-refered to line about doing what is best for countries, not individuals. Eddis points out that as thief, Gen only ever swore loyalty to the country, not the queen.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

Great questions! I only added answers where I felt my take was a bit different from comments already posted.

KoA
2.a.

I think he is honestly upset and responding in his typical manner. I loved how someone commented that through these q/a's we can see how much Gen has changed which is so true but then we can see how he still - at times - falls back to those basic traits that he has...such as pride/short temper/obstinacy. :)

c.
I get a less 'romantic love' impression of Relius to Attolia. Relius is my favorite character and I adore trying to tease out more information about him from the few moments we get to spend with him. My impression has always been that what he feels for Attolia is almost too powerful to be described. So much more than romantic love or hero worship, as in his personal existence is so tied up in her well-being that he cannot separate himself from her.

I don't think that Gen was hoping Relius would hate Attolia but was using precisely the questions that Relius would ask Gen. Gen took Relius' questions about himself [Gen] and turned them back to Relius as a way of showing that just as Relius could never hate Attolia neither could Gen. This is all predicated on Relius assuming Gen must actually despise Attolia rather than love her because of her treatment of him in QoA.

When Gen laughs after the kiss I think it is a fond, gentle laugh and it was a bittersweet "jealous?" because Gen knows that Attolia and Relius are both people who have not experienced a lot of love. I think he's asking if Relius is jealous of that type of devoted love. It's such a poignant way to verbally recognize the situation as well because it could be construed as mocking but his delivery is exquisite in that it softens the blow and at the same time does not make the situation too serious. Easier to laugh at pain than to make it serious? I think the reason he gave Relius the kiss was to illustrate that Relius is, in fact, in possession of that type of devoted love.


Regarding gen's cousins/water cache/ornon...I think it's that Ornon knows that Gen can lose his temper and mouth off before thinking. However, now that he is king if he mouths off his word is law. No empty threats any longer so if he can't keep his temper in check then his angry words can have very real (and mortal) results.

Regarding Teleus/apology/not done well...I think Gen is apologizing for being duplicitous and tricking Teleus. Teleus is responsible for keeping the Queen safe (and the King even if at times he forgot:) which is very hard to do if the King is pursuing his own crafty agenda behind one's back.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Gen was hoping Relius would hate Attolia but was using precisely the questions that Relius would ask Gen. Gen took Relius' questions about himself [Gen] and turned them back to Relius as a way of showing that just as Relius could never hate Attolia neither could Gen. This is all predicated on Relius assuming Gen must actually despise Attolia rather than love her because of her treatment of him in QoA.

YES. I think the question especially is a way for Gen to show Relius that they're not actually that different (sneaky and devoted to Attolia).

I've always had trouble deciding exactly what I think about the kiss Gen gives Relius. I don't think it's a romantic thing, more like a gesture of reassurance and affection. And I'm not sure I want to say I know exactly what it's all about because it's Gen! He's tricky!

[icastlecaptured.livejournal.com]

I agree with the consensus that Gen is being absolutely sincere in his
"I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT"
statement, and also that it's not the first time he's said it. I also, think though, that it like so much in KoA is a reminder of what Gen had to give up to become king. To the characters present, it's a flaunting of the power he has now, as (to many of them undeserving) king.
But to someone who's known him for three books though, it's revealing the power he used to have, but doesn't anymore. He used to BE able to do whatever he wanted, whatever the consequences, but now he's being followed around by his attendants to a deeply personal place where he doesn't want to be, to let someone go who he'd really rather not, still weak and recovering from an assassination attempt. At this point he feels trapped and frustrated.

He can't operate like he used, and hasn't come to terms with that yet. Hence his outburst.

So ... yeah. I think that line is very revealing and represents Gen's general state and journey throughout the book, as well as how he is being perceived by others. Gee that was longer than I expected...

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Oh and at the end of KOA Gen apologizes to Teleus for "what was done but not done well" or something like that...but I think he's done pretty well...so why apologize?

I think Gen may realize now that he could have trusted Teleus more? Since it comes just after the line where Teleus says that it's hard to trust a man who never reveals himself.

[(Anonymous)]

And is there perhaps some guilt over the way Costis was used in this as well?

Charlotte

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Relius - I think Gen was testing him when he asked if he hated Attolia now. If the answer had been yes, maybe Gen would have left him to his fate. But once he was sure that Relius was completely loyal he was able to save him, for Attolia's sake as well as Relius's. Oh, and as sgwordy said, Gen wanted Relius to understand Gen's love and loyalty towards Irene regardless of what she'd done to him in the past.

I also think Gen felt a tremendous amount of sympathy for Relius, who was afraid, and in pain, and in danger of dying in Attolia's dungeon. Gen knew what that felt like. He's very caring in his repeated visits to the infirmary, and the kiss, though meant as a joke, was the result of a combination of many things.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, interesting new view for my brain as I've never got the impression that Gen doubted Relius...oooh, must do some re-reads with new perspectives in mind.

This is why I love Sounis, always new ideas to keep in mind during re-reads.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

Most of these have already been answered better than I could already, BUT I will still give you my two cents:

TT
2. I think it's pretty clear that Gen made up the part about the sweetheart on the spot to give himself an excuse not to stay and serve Attolia. "I had to think of something quickly... as I searched for something safer to say, I remembered the magus' comment on the banks of the Aracthus." (TT p.196 UK pb) And no, I don't think he has had a sweetheart, even Agape (with whom he seems pretty uninterested) because some other place (um. KoA?) someone (Eddis? Relius?) remarks that Gen has never had much company in his life, and this is characteristic of the Thieves.

KoA
1. I think by KoA, Gen is much more aware of the responsibilities which come with being a sovereign, and although he still doesn't like the idea of Eddis having to marry Sounis, he realises that with Sophos missing, it may be her only chance to ally their two countries before the Mede arrive. Eddis mentioning Gen being the King of Attolia is a recognition of the fact that he now has to take a broader look with his priorities. (I could probably quote the passage by heart now...)

2b. I think this is an oblique reference to the fact that as the Thief of Eddis, Gen was a free agent and could do almost anything he wanted, and didn't really have to worry about the consequences. But I think what was more on Aulus and Boagus' minds was their naughty, annoying little cousin, running wild and wreacking havoc in Eddis' court.

c. Um, this is a little embarrassing, and it probably shows the influence of the slashers around here! That passage always confused me, because I assumed that Gen was asking Relius if he was jealous of *Irene* - that Relius was actually falling for Gen, and that was why Gen kissed Relius. But, yeah, um, the other explanations offered (unrequited Relius/Attolia) make much more sense!

[(Anonymous)]

2. Yes, I agree. Gen was never interested in anyone in Eddis's court. That much is very obvious. But it almost felt like, you know how everyone expected him to become a soldier, maybe everyone expected him to marry apage even without him realizing it?

c. LOL. Well, I think that's the *joke* part of it. While Rel was jealous of Gen for getting to kiss Irene (who he loves and is devoted to), Gen turns it around and is like 'oh you must be jealous of Irene' because I kissed her and not you' and kisses Rel. But because Rel is now loyal to Gen its all sweet and whatnot. At least that's how i took it.

[(Anonymous)]

The Theif

1) The person who said MoW shouting commands from the roofstop said it best.

2) He totally has a sweatheart. Attolia. She just doesn't know it. Nor does it one else. yet.


KoA
1 Sounis needs to be in the loop so that the three countries can be united against the Mede. And Gen can't marry Sounis. It has to be a three-way marriage (Attolia-Gen-Irene-Sounis) (or is that four-way?)

In answer...

[crazededdisian.livejournal.com]

For KoA number 2:

When Gen shouts, "I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT," it's because he lost it. Really, he lost it. He's been injured, insulted, is in the prison where... well... and the cell is even similar to the one he had. (Just he didn't remember his having a bed) Then he and Teleus start shouting at each other, and all this combines with EVERYTHING, and he loses it. He shouts "I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT!" and everyone thinks that's the King of Attolia losing his temper. It's not. It's the Thief of Eddis. Later, his cousin Aulus says that if he'd gotten a penny for every time Gen had said that, he'd be as rich as Ornon before he lost all hi sheep. (presumably Ornon was horribly rich) And later Gen tells his Irene that he "almost had them all executed." When Gen was younger, it seems that he went around going, "I can do anything I want!", which was his right as Thief as Eddis. For that one small moment, he forgot that he was the king and yelled something entirely inappropriate for that role. Oh dear, this is WAY TOO LONG. Ulp. Sorry!

Re: In answer...

[crazededdisian.livejournal.com]

Now I wish I'd done that under anonymous . . .

[filkferengi]

I think Gen kissing Relius was more as a balm: absolution, reassurance, recognition of a sworn vassal/liege-type relationship, & inclusion in "the family" or inner circle, all in one rather engagingly dramatic gesture. Efficient, that.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Well said.