Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

This is really interesting, because everybody has a slightly different take on what the twist is. There isn't room for that kind of variance in The Thief -- whether or not you yourself were actually surprised by the twist, I'll bet nobody has any doubts at all about exactly what it consists of -- while it's much murkier for the other three books. I mean, I assume the twist in Queen of Attolia

* * * SPOILER ALERT * * *

is that Gen is in love with Irene and means to marry her, not kill her (I also assume Helen knows this from the point at which Gen puts his proposal -- huh, no pun intended, but I see it lurking there -- in front of her), and the "twist" in Conspiracy of Kings is what Gen's gift to Sophos is and what Sophos does with it (or with Irene's gift, since they're basically fungible), but as shocked as I was by what Sophos does in the amphitheater, it seems to me those twists are qualitatively different from the twist in The Thief. I doubt anyone could pull off a Thief-like twist in the subsequent books in a series, at least not when substantially the same characters are involved, but it's also worth noting there's stuff in The Thief one should bear in mind when reading The King of Attolia -- Gen's very knowledgeable analysis of Sophos's sword-fighting lessons, for example, and the revelation of his fighting skills in the ambush where he kills somebody for the first time. But as I said in the original post, a lot of people seem to think there are Thief-like twists in Queen and King (and not so much in Conspiracy), and that puzzles me a bit.

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philia-fan.livejournal.com

I think King of Attolia is full of twists -- from small ones, like, "Oh, he was in the room with her during that scene when she seemed to be alone" to "Yowza, he risked his only hand to foil the assassins." Likewise Queen, which has the twists of Irene's heart as well as Gen's.

Maybe it's that we're not defining "twist" as "complete reversal," but as "unexpected development."

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charlotteslibrary.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)

yowza--it hadn't clicked with me that that was the only hand he had left. scary for him.

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So many puzzles in these books. One question I had was why it came as such a surprise to Attolia's guard that Gen had superior fighting skills given the revelation of his skill with a sword during the ambush in The Thief. We know that some of the guard (Teleus maybe?) had been present. Granted, during the ambush, Gen had both hands (and was right-handed when he fought), but still it seemed that someone would have remembered that he appeared to have been trained as a competent swordsman, and had fought with skill at some point.

I assumed the twist in KoA was more for Costis' benefit (and any new readers') than for those who had already been through TT and QoA. And I agree with you, it is qualitatively different than the twist in TT.

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Oh, and I'll add that in KoA the slow reveal of Gen's palm (and the scar) to Teleus was a complete surprise to me. It wasn't as momentous a revelation as in TT, but it was very satisfying (and brilliant IMO) because it reinforced that Gen was still one step ahead of everyone (including me, the reader.)

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freenarnian.livejournal.com

And MWT comes right out and tells us that Gen's hand is bleeding, when Costis rushes in and wakes him from his bad dream. Of course, instead of accepting that for what it was, I filled-in nonexistent blanks with "Oh, Gen must have burst his tummy stitches, or something..."

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freenarnian.livejournal.com

The biggest reveal for me was that Gen and Irene loved each other. Because QoA hadn't sunk in with me yet... instead of really thinking about their relationship I just jumped straight into KoA with an "Oh no! What did Gen get himself into? Why why why?!" mindset.

I guess I relate to clueless Costis a lot.

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Maybe it's that we're not defining "twist" as "complete reversal," but as "unexpected development."

I agree with this - there were so many twists in KoA for me. There were really smart comments, when Gen looks cornered, but isn't. There was the Erondites trap, with Dite's song, and everyone believing in Gen's incompetence. There was the scene with the assassins. The entire books was full of unexpected developments.

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Nope, it took me a reread to understand why Gen looked out the window toward Eddis, and why Sejanus found that important.

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My thoughts exactly! MWT is so sneaky!

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keestone.livejournal.com

That's my thought as well. Gen being Gen, I expected twisty plans and misdirection, but the depth of the planning ahead and the "sometimes to change a man's mind you have to change the mind of the man next to him" idea stood out.

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keestone.livejournal.com

I don't think any of the Guard were present during the ambush in the Thief. IIRC, Teleus made sure that anyone who was involved in the ambush was transferred away from the palace so there was no chance of his men coming in contact with a king who might be holding a grudge.

As far as Gen's reputed fighting skills, with him calculatedly hiding his abilities, his skill could be chalked up to luck.

From: (Anonymous)

Aren't we all just a little bit clueless when it comes to these books? In KoA I was 100% convinced that Gen really was struggling, even though I knew how awesome he is and I understood that he is sneaky and clever. I felt like a total idiot for the rest of the book, until the very end when I finally realized that even though Gen was fooling everyone, he was also struggling on a very personal level at the same time. So he wasn't struggling, but he was. Whoooo...

MWT, you sneaky, sneaky individual.

~toastisyummy

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I agree that for people who've read the first two books, KoA is mostly just a series of surprising events, rather than one big revelation. One of the things that surprised me was finding out that Relius had gone back to speak to Gen after the hand scene in the previous book, and, as soon as we knew that, I was surprised that Gen wanted to befriend him rather than get revenge. That really illuminated both of their characters for me, since prior to that I'd really thought Gen was a revenge-is-a-dish-best-served-cold kind of guy. But I was pleasantly surprised and intrigued to see that he didn't seem to have lost any of his compassion from TT, which he'd been pretending not to have up until then during KoA, so---yeah. KoA's surprise is that Gen's been hiding critical aspects of his character from the Attolians (and in some cases, the reader, too).

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From The Thief on, Gen gets a lot of mileage out of hiding in plain sight and letting people fool themselves about him. In The Thief, he tells the Magus what his name is, and the Magus even speculates that he might be related to the Thief of Eddis, but he still doesn't put two and two together. (Of course, neither did I, and I even knew there was a twist. On the other hand, shouldn't the King of Sounis's Magus have known that the hereditary Thief of Eddis was exactly Gen's age?) Similarly, Gen is a national hero in Eddis after stealing the Gift, the King of Sounis was afraid Eddis would send Gen to assassinate him, Gen's been in and out of Attolia's palaces to the point that the Queen's had to set up an elaborate trap to catch him, he's the son of the Minister of War in a country whose people have nothing better to do all winter but train for war, giving it a highly effective army, and yet the Attolian barons continue to underestimate Gen just because he slouches in his chair and seems to be napping, and, I guess, because he's a mountain boy. It's an obuect lesson in how you can be blinded by your prejudicese and assumptions.

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I realize it's not fair to expect you to speak for the people whose reviews prompted my question, but several of them seem to think Conspiracy doesn't have a clever twist like The King of Attolia.

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This reminds me of how I finally, after, oh, about twenty-five years, figured out what was actually ironic about Ozymandias: he was right, the mighty might well look on his works and despair, but not in the way he thought. You're right, Gen is struggling, but it's an emotional struggle, not an intellectual one.

And mention of his struggle reminds me of one of my favorite scenes, when Irene comes storming up to see Gen after he's helped Costis save Teleus's life, and she says, "I would see my lord Attolis," and Gen says, "I am here." I just love that little vignette, with Gen "stepping into the doorway wearing a nightshirt and robe, rumpled and pale, but resolute." It's interesting, though, that she asks for him as King, and he answers as such, but he used their personal relationship, not his position as King, to get her to spare Teleus's life.

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Exactly. That's something that appears over and over in these books, from all the other characters in TT, to Costis, to the readers themselves. ***CoK SPOILER*** During KoA, I really disliked the attendants, especially Ion, who always seemed to be sneering at Gen (except near the end, when he only acted respectful out of fear for himself now that everyone knew Gen was awesome). But we see a totally different side of him in CoK that makes me really love his character. The perspective from which a person is viewed makes a huge difference in the kind of assumptions we make about that person.

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OOooo. Nice insight.

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ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com

That's true, but remember what Costis said about Gen's accent. Everyone knew he was an Eddisian, and yet no one seemed to find it odd that he spoke like an Attolian.

Part of Gen's ability is to not only to mask to truth, but to distract people from it. Even when they already know it has to be there.

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ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com

I agree with everyone above.

Both Thief and Queen had surprise twists. A.K.A. - information that was withheld till almost the very end.

Both King and Conspiracy are composed of smaller twists. A.K.A. - small bits of information that are withheld for a short period of time.

I actually commend Mrs. Turner for adding some new tunes to the mix. Once most authors find what sells, they rarely challenge themselves to do something new.

For example, O. Henry was considered the master of surprise ending, but many of his short-stories are better classified as being ironic than having a surprise ending. You can see what I mean if you compare The Open Window with The Ransom of the Red Chief. They posses two very different effects, and one is not neccessarly inferior to the other just different.

I might also mention, that many members of Sounis read the three previous books before joining. Perhaps, being a member of Sounis affected their perception or simply made them more astute to Mrs. Turner's sneakiness.

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gkchesterton1.livejournal.com

"The Open Window" is by Saki who I love. Read "The Story Teller" by him. It is good.

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Of course if he hadn't risked his hand then he wouldn't have had use of it afterward anyways...since he would probably be dead.

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You'd probably have to ask them what twist in KoA they are referring too. As for myself I think that the "twist" in ACoK

*******Spoiler!********

(When Sophos pulls the second gun on the Mead and smiles like his uncle.) was the biggest and best twist of the series. That whole page had me squirming with uncontainable delight and grinning from ear to ear. Maybe it was partially because I was reading it out loud to my husband that it seemed so glorious, but it's certainly my favorite part thus far.

On a side note...does anyone know how many more books she plans to write in this series?

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Two more books, I believe.

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I think that his kindness is partially an Eddisian thing, or at least it runs in his family. We see it a lot in QoA with hos Eddis/Helen treats somewhat less then welcome guests.

It seems often to be a true in the real world that treating someone with kindness prompts them feel the most sorry about what they may have done to you and begin to change.

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Sorry lots of typos in there; here's how it should have read.

I think that Gen's kindness is partially an Eddisian thing, or at least it runs in his family. We see it a lot in QoA with how Eddis/Helen treats somewhat-less-then-welcome guests.

It seems often to be a true in the real world that treating someone with kindness prompts them to feel the most sorry about what they may have done to you, and begin to change.

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I liked it, too, and in fact, it's what prompted my question, because it seems to me it is much more of a surprise than anything in King of Attolia. The only thing that is comparable for me is The Thief. I like Conspiracy better, I think it is a richer and more sophisticated book, but the twist in The Thief is pretty hard to top. She played it absolutely fair, too; Gen withholds information like crazy, but he doesn't actually lie. Now that makes me wonder: how many of his "lies" are really actual lies, and how many are just misdirection/lies of omission?

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Good point. A few of Gen's lies are outright lies (asking Teleus to tell the Queen he was going directly to bed, etc.) but most are misdirections and omissions ("Where are my earrings?"... "What earrings?") It's what makes the rereads so much fun.

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twelfthfantasy.livejournal.com

The big twist for me was that Gen had been planning all along to destroy the house of Erondites. I thought he was just down-spiraling a bit because he hated being king so much. I didn't think that his love for Irene was enough to get him through it, and what's worse, MWT got me to lose confidence in his scheming abilities and so I thought that the book was going to just be Gen's struggle to accept being king and Attolia(the country)'s struggle to accept him as their king.

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agh-4.livejournal.com

Good point about the attendants! I think it's partially Gen's inferiority complex-ish (whaat? why would they like ME?) that keeps them unsympathetic characters in KoA (except for maybe Philologos), and partly Costis's p.o.v. -- they bullied him too.

But Sophos has a fresh perspective on them. It also makes me wonder how they would have acted if there hadn't been a Sejanus to drive them along. And Sejanus -- Gen refers to him as [not exact quote, sorry] "a man I would have liked to execute." He seems to be quite despicable. But could he be redeemed? Dite likes him, after all...

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agh-4.livejournal.com

I just noticed the Gen-in-scene-thing the last time I reread. :)

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hazelwillow.livejournal.com

"It's an abject lesson in how you can be blinded by your prejudices and assumptions"

- wow, thanks for the insight, this is so true. All your comments here make me realize *yet again* how this series is SO essentially about point of view... not only from a writing perspective, but thematically and in terms of the characters. Point of view shapes how one sees everything. The Thief completely takes advantage of readers' expectations (of a fantasy novel, of the convention that first person narrators *aren't supposed to* hide significant details about themselves and about what they're doing in plain sight... etc) and proves to us how arbitrary those expectations ARE. There are no rules... authors can do anything.

The Mede would be another example: they constantly underestimate the inhabitants of this part of the world, because from their point of view, their own culture is more advanced. They're blinded by their own colonial assumptions.

I wonder if Gen ever is blinded this way, in turn? He is usually the master of using POV to his own advantage, but there may come a time that he is blinded himself? Your point about the attendants would be one example, and his unwillingness to assume Sophos still cares about him despite his new kingly responsibilities. I'm trying to think... is this the first time we've seen him blinded this way?
I suppose his original disbelief in the Gods could be seen as another, very basic blindness-of-perspective... he assumed they couldn't be true, and is proven so very wrong.

So maybe this whole assumptions-blind-you idea is also about faith ~ faith that the gods could be real, that people are more complex than they seem, that an icy and cruel queen is a loving person underneath? These, too, are truths that hide in plain sight (of COURSE a queen is a real person, and real people need love... even if she APPEARS to have a heart of stone). Except Gen seems to really discern these things, rather than simply believing in them without some indication of proof(I suppose his faith in the gods isn't "faith" per se, seeing as they've *proven* their existence to him). More insight than faith. So now I've gone in a full circle... Heh. Sorry for the rambliness of my musings.

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checkers65477.livejournal.com

I think you're right that Gen quite often doesn't see others' POV, and their motivations, clearly. AT the end of Thief, he remarks that his aunts and uncles commented about how surprisingly like his father he is--and some comment about their remarks not seeming completely insincere? And, Eddis tells him in QoA that he was the Boy Wonder, and his cousins really did care about him. He really does seem blind to the fact that many others think he is made of Awesome.

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Exactly, there's that whole thing in CoK about "People don't give *me* their hearts, Sophos" and Sophos thinks, "What? I'd give him my heart on a toothpick!" (Favorite line #7, btw.) Gen seems to be unable to believe anyone else could actually like him after getting to know him, with a few exceptions that he still constantly doubts (e.g. Sophos). I wonder if he would be an even more effective ruler if he saw these things, or if part of what makes him good is that he's so unwilling to see them that he never becomes arrogant.

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