Sudden Realization

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Okay, so maybe I'm just dense and this has occurred to everyone else before, but I've always been confused about the scene in The King of Attolia where Relius is arrested. And while I understood after much rereading and explaining by this community that he was arrested because it was his fault the Medes found out about the spies, because he had been indiscreet with his former mistress when he should have known better . . . I never understood why he tried to take poison afterward. If he knew he was innocent, just stupid, why would he try to kill himself? It's not like he actually betrayed Attolia, right? He could just explain to her what happened, not lie about it, and still be loyal to her. Right?

So the sudden realization came about 10 minutes ago when, as I was rereading that scene in KoA, I figured out the reason for the suicide attempt. Attolia was going to torture him hideously whether or not he betrayed her on purpose. And not because she doesn't want to trust him, but because she can't trust him, because she can't trust anyone. No matter how convincing he is that the betrayal was accidental and no matter how much she wants to believe him, she has to go forward under the assumption that he's lying through his teeth to save his own skin. And Relius knows that because he taught it to her himself. So that's why he tries to take poison---because anything is better than the infamous Attolian torture tactics, and because he knows possibly better than anyone else in the world how absolutely useless it would be to try to explain. He might not be guilty, but he's in for a world of pain either way. It's not that he's ashamed of having betrayed her or trying to escape a justly-deserved punishment. Death's just a better alternative.

Is this as much of a revelation to anyone as it is to me? Did I explain it intelligibly? Do you disagree? I hope this sparks a discussion, even a spin-off one about Attolian torture techniques or Relius's relationship to Irene, because we need some more book talk around here right now :)

Comments

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

aw man, I LOVE realization moments like this one! I had a similar moment about Costis dueling Eugenides--I'd read the book twice and never understood why Costis was so gung-ho about it, and then the third time it was like, duh, he wants to prove Eugenides can actually fight, so he can save his honor.

SO YES you explained it very well and I think you are correct.

(And yes, we need more book talk--it might be about time for another While She Knits post.)

ACTUALLY I WILL HAPPILY SPINOFF INTO A CONVERSATION ABOUT RELIUS'S RELATIONSHIP TO ATTOLIA, in which he has the biggest crush on her ever. Y/Y?

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Um, YES. Definitely. Remember when Gen kisses her on the cheek and Relius is like **jealous!!** and Gen's like "Aw, jealous? It's ok, here ya go!" and kisses him, too? That jealousy is totally meant for Attolia.

[alineadrklrdsis.livejournal.com]

*Stares* Wow, I can't believe I've never seen that before now.
I always thought that Relius was just feeling upset because Gen was kissing his stone cold, rules-in-her-own-right, would-willingly-march-into-hell-for-her, ice queen; like Costis in the breakfast room. But it makes perfect sense for him to be in love with Attolia.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, and yes! :D

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

YES! I SOOO CALLED IT!!!!

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

YES. Which, honestly, is part of why I love Gen. Instead of being jealous back and making an already difficult relationship more difficult, he's kind.

I love it when Gen's kind. It makes my heart go pitter-pat.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

That is a shiny icon.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

GO FIREFLY YEAH!!!!
just had to get that out there.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Yes!

Relius has a massive crush on her, but it's more how Dite loves her. Those two have fawning courtly type feelings for her. It's more along the lines of worship.

Gen is the one who sees the woman before he sees the queen. Although, he does get a bit star-struck himself.

Relius does know Irene (probably better than Dite), but he's also the one who overlooked the fact that she was losing her heart and sanity. Gen's just about the only one who sees her as an actual human being, with limits to her strength.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Wow. That is... yes. Very insightful.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It's partially a credit to all of you guys.

It was Phila (I think) who suggested that Dite affections more resembled courtly love than true romantic love. I've just extended it to Relius.

It's all her fault I have this disturbing image of Dite as troubadour with his harp signing Who Made Thee, Hob Forsake the Plough with Relius as backup. Scary...

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

*happily takes credit for this image*
*guffaws at song choice!*

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

THIS. Exactly


haha he does get star-struck once in a while too, how cute.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yar, I can see it, that Gen's love is definitely different than the other two's (and possibly Kamets, if he really was in love with her). But I think that Relius does see some of The Woman Behind The Queen -- there's that line about him knowing about her rare smiles, and being glad that Gen is one of the few who gets them -- though he DOES miss the whole thing about how distrust can be destructive.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Hmm...I always assumed that he considered it a betrayal, even if it wasn't intentional. Remember that he and Attolia had developed this very strict code and IMO it seems like he interpreted it as if you mess up at all, you've betrayed your country and your queen. By the end of the book I think he's come to a different understanding, but I think that's his journey. Just my opinion.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

That's really interesting, actually, since it highlights a completely different part of their relationship---his loyalty to her and how close they are, as opposed to what he has taught her politically. I think that's a good interpretation too, and it has the benefit of explaining how Relius's character changes from start to finish, which mine doesn't really.

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's a little of both, then?

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that fear of getting tortured ISN'T part of it. Just pointing out that I think he does initially see himself as having betrayed Attolia unforgivably.

[agentmaly.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. In fact, I see this as his primary motivation for having attempted to take poison - of course he's frightened of what will be done to him, but Relius being Relius, I see his concerns ranked thus: primarily, he has objectively betrayed Attolia; this is an unforgivable crime; secondly, he feels personal shame over his failure; and fear comes in only third.

(The most recent post (sounis.livejournal.com/580625.html#t13617425) led me back here.)

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

I agree. I like both explanations, because they encompass everything Relius is about and everything he has taught Attolia. And even though my brother explained this to me as spellcoats' explanation, I think drashizu's adds another dimension to it. Thanks to you both!!!!!

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I agree that it is a combination of both. He has failed his Queen whether or not it was intentional and he can't see past that. But he also admits to being afraid in this scene because he is the one who has taught her that she can't trust anyone and that pain is the only way of finding out answers.

I personally have always found Relius creepy for this very reason (don't throw things at me).

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

*agrees*

This is reaffirmed when Relius tells Gen that he doesn't deserve the queen's pardon, because he failed her.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I think to him, failure is betrayal. Which is an impossible standard to hold himself to, and by extension an impossible standard to hold her to. Something was going to break eventually. Thankfully, Gen had already gone through a failure of sorts and come out on the other side.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Yes--I think that's a great point.

[lipton-tea.livejournal.com]

I suppose it sort of depends on how you define 'betray', but...The way I interpreted it when I read it was that he did commit an act of betrayal. It may have been an accident, in much the same way as getting drunk, getting in one's car and running over someone's kid is an accident. Relius divulged sensitive information intentionally, just as the driver intentinally had those drinks and got in his/her car. Just because Relius' intention was to impress a sexy lady, and the driver's intention to simply go home, doesn't change the actual consequences. Except, in Relius' case, he didn't run over someone's kid, he gave up information which resulted in the torture and execution of several people's kids.

Irene, as Atollia, is the head of the state; its secrets are her secrets. She trusted Relius with those secrets and he betrayed that trust, failing both his monarch and his country (to say nothing of his agents whom he sent against the Mede).

I don't mean to imply that Relius did (or didn't) receive a just punishment, or that one can be defined by a single failure. As others have pointed out, Relius was only human. People make mistakes; sometimes they make really, really stupid mistakes. Most of those mistakes are not made with state secrets; however when one plays with higher stakes than most people, one risks losing that much harder. Still, a betrayal of trust is a betrayal of trust, whether one's intentions are innocent or not. I think. Or maybe that's me being a hard#%!....

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, I definitely think he did betray her. But the change comes in the way he views his own mistake--at first he (and maybe Irene too) sees it as unforgivable. Like freenarnian said below, it's all about those themes of mercy and forgiveness, which necessarily involves the willingness to be forgiven.

[lipton-tea.livejournal.com]

Yes, very good point. I also liked how you brought up earlier the code he and Irene had developed. I wonder if breaking that brought the betrayal onto a more personal, rather than strictly political level for them both...

[lipton-tea.livejournal.com]

Edit: Relius' spies were not executed. I badly misremembered that scene. Apologies for the error!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

What I love most about this part in the book is Eugenides' intervention, and how it ties into the ongoing theme of mercy.

Irene's life has taught her that rigidity is key to her survival as a monarch. Enter Eugenides, enter the idea that mercy is also key, to her survival as a human being.

(It's like he performs inception on her mind!!) (Yeah. I'm crisscrossing fandoms.)

Gah. I love this series.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, like Gen steps right into the middle of this impossibly hopeless situation---where Relius has failed the person he would never betray consciously, and Irene has to punish him because of what he himself has taught her, and they're both going to be incredibly hurt by it---and Gen's compassion shows them both how to escape. And saves them both.

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

I agree that Eugenides' intervention is the best part of this sequence (though I do love Relius, and Attolia, and their relationship). Because Attolia hasn't yet learned that she can do things differently--she's about to do to Relius what she did to Gen (in some ways), that is, to destroy someone she loves. Gen is the one who shows her she can be different, that mercy is an option, which she desperately needs to know. (One reason why we all love him so...)

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Oh wow! What you said makes me realize that this part of the book does several things. It
-- gives Relius food for thought about trust
-- gives Gen a chance to show Relius a little of himself, bringing Relius to Gen's side
and maybe even
-- gives Gen some closure on his own experience of being tortured, with the role-reversal thing.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow! Excellent point! I had not seen that Gen gained some closure on his own experience of being tortured. That's brilliant!

[hapaxnym.livejournal.com]

Actually, I've always kinda assumed that yes, he knew that Attolia would torture him irregardless, even while being ninety percent sure he was innocent -- and he took poison to spare her from having to do that.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

You just added yet another dimension to it all--nice!

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

official response: oh, what Checkers said! That's lovely.

fangirl response: D'AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW RELIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS ;_;

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, I really like that interpretation too! Nice... I'm going to have to mull this over now.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

yes. He *does* love her ;]

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I believe there's three reasons.

(1) Fear of torture. As you pointed out.
(2) Feelings of guilt because he betrayed her in a sense.
(3) And I think a little of wanting to spare Irene from having to torture him. He's knows she's not heartless, and seeing him in pain at her hands is going to tear at her soul. Not that is wouldn't be most painful for him in the end.

I can understand why his first choice was the hemlock.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I think that sums it up pretty well.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

Relius is my fave! I love discussions with Relius! Huzzah!

(the only thing about him I find creepy are his clothes. i lurv his character!)

I think he 100% knew he was going to be tortured. I think 9days list is very good. I def think he considered what he did a betrayal. I don't recall that it's detailed in any way but I have always imagined this betrayal to not result from impressing a lady friend (I can't imagine Relius talking of his work to anyone but the queen) but in that he was careless with written info and/or his schedule or the schedules of his employees. I assume the lady friend was not an idiot and so did her spy thang and pieced information together. Information that Relius was careless with but not any info he actually imparted.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

but, but, but his clothes ARE his character!

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

I prefer to think of them more as part of his persona. ;)

[smills47.livejournal.com]

Regarding the fear part -- he may have also been thinking that Gen would take this opportunity to exact revenge on him for his having had Gen tortured post-amputation (iirc without Irene's knowledge).