Post to Discuss "Destruction"

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I thought this story merited its own discussion post, like the big grown up awesome story that it is. So here one is!

Note if you haven't read the short story at the end of the Conspiracy of Kings paperback yet, beware of spoilers lurking below.

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My own thoughts:

Personally I loved this story, more than the other two short stories we've seen so far, actually. This one stuck with me and it's still sticking.

Part of why I liked it so much is because it seemed like a temporary what-if: what if the rest of the world was let into Gen's private world for a few days, and then we got to go back to normal after? Gen's faith is usually a private, intimate thing. In The Thief, he doesn't speak to the Magus about what happened in the maze, but he cares enough about it to shed tears when he realizes it's gone. It strikes me that the destruction of the Gift probably didn't need to be shown in The Thief because the destruction of the maze was. Only Helen and later Irene, Costis, and Sophos share Eugenides's knowledge that the gods are real, as far as we know. But while everyone's in the presence of the Gift, for a while they all share the same understanding of an impossibility. That was neat, to me. Because usually Gen knows a lot more than everyone else, and they find out what he knows at the end. Here, it's kind of the opposite of what usually happens.

My favourite part was the ending, I felt it had a weight and *almost* a sadness to it, as though Gen was searching from face to face for something soon lost. He's shut back away from everyone else in that moment when they all lose their belief again. I was reminded of Relius's words in KoA: "there are other words for privacy  and independence. They are isolation and loneliness." I never actually saw those emotions, myself, in Pre-King!Gen, but I can see where they might exist here.

Of course, he's not really alone, because Helen believes, too. Interesting that he looks to Attolia, not her. Well, I know he wouldn't be able to see the change in Helen's face, so there's that. But still. Maybe the isolation I'm sensing is not about faith, but about something else. I don't know.

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Some questions/observations to start things off:

1. Why was Attolia watching Gen so obsessively? What could be going on in her head?

2. drashizu pointed out that everyone was referred to by their titles, even the Thief. Name Game....?

3. Is this the first time we've been inside OldMan!Sounis's POV? My dislike of him is solidified! (I guess that's not really a question!)

4. When exactly does this take place in terms of Gen's feelings for Attolia...?

5. There's lots of light, fire, and darkness mentioned --being able to see or not see, torches making them night-blind, and then the light of day, and the unseen fire below. Any parallels to the belief and lack of it that also goes on?

6. Same as the disappearing faith in the Eddis short, the Gods seem to like it that most people don't remember how real they are. Aren't gods supposed to *want* you to believe in them? Or maybe they want faith without knowledge? The way people forget strikes me as more like the fairies of Celtic legends than Gods. Anyone know how the Greek gods were about this topic?

7. I wonder how Helen feels about giving up her immortality?

8. A Crossbow? It seems disposing of small objects in volcanoes is kind of awkward! I guess that's why we don't do it all the time. Frodo was lucky with that parapet thing in Lord of the Rings.

That's all I can think of. I want to hear what you all thought/felt and I'm sure you'll come up with better questions to ask, anyway. :)

Comments

[theorangethief.livejournal.com]

So I don't usually post until other people put up what they think so this is a new expeirience for me.
1. She's probably really ticked off at him because he WAS IN HER DUNGEONS and STILL got away(with a stone that gives the wearer immortality, I might add.)I would probably be really mad at him too.
3. Yes it is really hard to find any kind of likable-ness is him.
4. I don't think he knows he loves her, yet. Didn't he make a comment about how he loved her when he was in her dungeon but still thought she was a fiend from hell?
8. Yes, Frodo always seems to have really good luck, a lot.
I'm not sure about all of the other ones I have to go put my thinking cap on.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Wheeee! YESH, discussion!!!

I cannot exactly state my overall feelings for the story as of yet, because when I was reading it I was too darn excited, and uhm... it was hard for me to get into it. But I still thought it was beautiful. ^^ Now I'll go back and watch out for the things you mentioned.

1. I agree with theorangethief. She was probably really pissed at him still, with him sneaking into her land and stealing something in her possession, and now the whole country of Eddis is making a show of destroying that very same thing that he stole. It's kind of rubbing it in her face, I think. And even though Gen's clueless about how everyone around him sort of treats him as a hero now (like what Magus says in QoA), I think Attolia was very aware of that. And his change of image came at her expense: he became a hero, and she lost face in her own court. She's really angry I think.

2. Lol, probably?

3. Yeah, I think it's probably the first time, though now that I look back, there's a scene in QoA where we see Sounis in a private moment too. Magus had just been stolen at that time, and he was raging angry with the new magus. But I like this little part in the story. It kind of fleshed him out a bit more, even though whatever was said wasn't exactly flattering for his character.

4. Well, he said that he loved her before stealing the Gift, right? But he didn't realize it yet until Dite started rapping a proposal. I think... it would come later? If anything, I think he still thinks of her as a fiend.

6. Yeah, maybe they want faith? I'm not so sure, because I know that greek deities require a different sort of worship from their followers than the God we know of now. Or maybe they want to keep low profile, because that's the best way to get what they want. If everyone was just like Gen... hmmm, maybe it creates more friction, knowing that you're a tool? But if you're just like Costis who doesn't exactly know (until he meets Gen), then you're easier to carry along. Erm, maybe?

7. I think she feels at peace, actually. She knows that the mountain will blow up sometime in the future, and she probably doesn't want to be around by that time.

8. I was thinking exactly the same thing!! Frodo... haha.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Haha, I can relate -- i don't often make posts myself, so I found doing this one kind of nervewracking. ;)

1. Ah, your're right, it makes sense that she's mad. *smacks self over the head* They're all extreme emotions, those two, aren't they?

Feel free to ignore my somewhat inane questions, btw. Post your thoughts, whatever they are!

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Also about Frodo, ahahaha, yes, he does. He also has Sam, which is pretty much a dealbreaker.

[meltintall3.livejournal.com]

1. She wanted to know what he was thinking, trying to see what made him so loyal to Eddis and if he regretted not changing sides.

2. Is it linked to the formality of the occasion as well?

3. *chuckle*

4. My take is that he's interested in her, but he doesn't know why.

5. I thought that was just a Gen-thought along the lines of, "But now I can't get away with stealing someone's earrings!" ... just a thought. Heh. Who am I kidding? There's a significance to the timing, but 'dawn of a new age' in the light of a fairly ominous choice... [/ramble]

6. Is it the Gods, or a property of faith? You never *really* believed, therefore you forget -- it has to be a personal experience? *gropes in the dark here*

7. Doesn't she mention somewhere that she felt relief?

8. I am reminded of Queen Prunaprismia's crossbow in the movie Prince Caspian. Heh.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I like what you were saying about Gen's isolation and the sadness of the final part. I really felt that too. I think this is when his isolation from others took a different course. He was isolated when he was younger because of his insistence to become the Thief and his refusal to follow along with what everyone else wanted. He returns from his adventures a hero to his people and is still isolated only this time because he has had this life altering experience no one else can possibly understand. And it only gets worse. Poor Gen.

1) I am going to veer off from popular opinion thus far and say that what Attolia was thinking was far more complex than anger. I think anger was probably a part of it, but not all of it. I was under the impression that her consuming anger with him was a gradual build up fed by the continual harassment from Sounis and Gen's gifts and notes (which she felt were mocking). At this point I think her anger wasn't so strong. I'm fairly certain he also impressed her and that intrigued her. (Not many people truly impress Attolia). Not only had he managed to get himself out of her country but he did it severely injured and took along her two other prisoners. In many respects I think at this point her anger at that would mostly have been directed at her guards and largely diminished by her temporary belief in the Gift. He had it and was protected. I think she was probably also impressed with his loyalty to Eddis. He could have given that stone to anyone he chose. It is the prerogative of the Thief. And now he is completely willing to watch as what he worked so hard to attain is destroyed. He's actually helping. So I think the obsessive staring is her trying to figure him out and a bit of wondering what it would be like to have someone like him at her back.

[lopezuna-writes.livejournal.com]

1. Agreed. I imagine it's not just hatred, but wondering what it would be like to have somebody like that at her back (as he literally is at Eddis's back, to catch her as she slumps).

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

And I think too that before this Attolia hasn't believed in the gods; she has in fact denied them. And now, she must be wondering and even, maybe, convinced by Gen's feats and survival that the gods are truly present. That has to have rocked her back a bit. So to have Gen and his gods at her back...well, hell. So to speak.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

1. Good points. She is beginning to see just how dangerous to her Gen might be.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

THIS IS AN AWESOME POST.

Thank you for making it, and oh such awesome questions! :-)

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

This warms my heart! :) You're welcome and Thanks!

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Good points, thanks for the explanation about his isolation taking a different course here as opposed to before. It's interesting, because I'd sort of forgotten, throughout the later books, how he might feel about knowing about the gods when others don't. I considered it when I was reading The Thief, of course, because it's pretty obvious how disturbing it was when the horses he was stealing made no noise, and all that. Being singled out by the gods was frightening and very disturbing. But in later books I've sort of assumed he's gotten used to it, and when I was thinking back to how isolated he may have felt as Eddis's Thief, I only considered what you said above, about the thief's training being isolating. I never considered what kind of effect the gods' might have.

1) Illuminating! This mixture you describe makes a lot of sense, especially the notion that he irked her but also *intrigued* her and that she's trying to figure him out. When I read the story at first I actually didn't think of anger, I thought that Attolia very much wants someone to be as faithful and loyal to her as Gen is to Eddis. But now I'm thinking --that jealousy towards Eddis about Gen was what Attolia felt in QoA. She's probably not there yet: I wonder if this scene is part of what leads her to develop those feelings. She would want to know what his motivations were for stealing the Gift, and now she's working it out --that he's just really, really loyal to his cousin. And then over the next few months (years?), to be getting notes and gifts from him which, as you say, she sees as mocking. Gives more insight into why she's so angry at the beginning of Queen.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Ah, good point!

Of course, once the belief in the Gift fades, she may just be left with an impression that there's another reason Gen is more dangerous than she thought, but not be sure exactly what it was... At the beginning of QoA she doesn't know of Gen's belief, I don't think. But she does know about Moira. Hm...

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

2. That's what I thought too. I guess this is all a public view of all the royals, and their public view of each other. And the Trade Houses. Whatever they are. That's supported by the fact that we don't get to hear Gen and Eddis's joke. Though I assumed it was something about how awkward the crossbow thing was. :P

4. Right! I need to write these things in the margins or something.

[meltintall3.livejournal.com]

2. I can read the comment "she had said as much to her Thief" either way... she said it to him then, or in a comment made beforehand, or both at the same time because some jokes bear repeating.

My theory is that the Trading Houses are from the Continent and will exert pressure of some sort on SEA in the next book. I suppose it makes sense that they can stand in for formal ambassadors/with the ambassadors (Marco Polo?)

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

I know, right? She wondered how he escaped, and then he's been teasing her and leaving notes, which has been pissing her off. Then, when she sees the stone, she thinks, "Oh, so that's how he got away! He was immortal for a bit." And then the notes, and she's thinking, "I'll kill the little stinker!" And then in goes the stone, into the volcano, and she thinks, "Hey, now I CAN kill the little stinker!" And has she already received her message from the gods yet, about where to place the boards, the next time Gen visits her? Just when does this story take place? We don't really know. She could be staring at Gen and thinking, "Now, now I will nail those boards up between the trees where Moira told me to. Now is the time. Come to Mama, ickle Gen. Come on down your mountain, goat-boy."

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

I breezed through the story super fast, so I don't know if I have much insight to add, but I'm quite excited that there's some discussion about it!

A couple of thoughts:

5. Thanks for pointing out the light motifs! I like that you connect it to belief (faith may be tied to illumination or "seeing the light"), so it's fitting that in this complicated story the light is pretty complex too--both illuminating and destructive.

6. I'm not an expert on Greek gods by any means, but I feel like they appeared in disguise a lot (like Athena in The Odyssey) and didn't particularly care to be recognized. Perhaps that's a parallel? The gods here want to be acknowledged on some level, but they're not above a little disguise here and there?

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

This is what's confusing me a bit

Was it Eddis that benefited from immortality for a little while, or Gen? Because in the past we had a discussion about how the gods allowed Gen to get away with it, which basically means that they "gave" it to him. So that's why he did not die after being stabbed.

This story made it seem like Eddis was the one who was losing that power by throwing the gift into the volcano.

In the case of the timeline, I actually had an impression that it wasn't very long after The Thief. I'm not sure if Gen had enough time to go back a couple of times to Attolia to leave all the notes and watch her sleeping (the little creeper) as of yet.

But then again, TT and QoA are only a year apart, so maybe he's already started.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Was it Eddis that benefited from immortality for a little while, or Gen? Because in the past we had a discussion about how the gods allowed Gen to get away with it, which basically means that they "gave" it to him. So that's why he did not die after being stabbed.

Right, that's why he did not die after being stabbed. I think the stone's protection of him lasted as long as he was in possession of it. that is, it stopped protecting him as soon as he let it drop into Eddis's hands near the end of The THief. He gave gave it to it to her (for good), so its power went to her. That's why he passed out as soon as he let it go, and then got sicker as he had to fight his injuries on his own after that.

I think the stone's power would protect Eddis in the same way, until she gave it back to the gods, as she did in this scene.

In terms of the timeline, it has to be long enough after the end of The Thief for Gen to be healed and able to get out of bed and ride a horse. I guess we don't know whether he's been back to Attolia yet. My guess is not, but I don't know. Either they're looking at each other in part because of those notes, or this scene is part of the impetus for him to leave the notes in the future. I think the latter.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

That's how I interpreted it, too.

[inkasrain.livejournal.com]

Wow. This story was kind of like a long, slow drumroll, wasn't it? And that last sentence was a knockout.

As far as Attolia watching Gen goes, I think there are a lot of emotional and psychological layers at play, but I think one thing about Gen that fascinates Irene is his resilience. Her thoughts hint to this in QoA-- how aware she is that Gen being maimed will not necessarily prevent him from returning to threaten her, and her sensitivity to how much he has changed when he kidnaps her. This is also an issue in KoA, when Ornon needs to remind Attolia to act on what she intellectually knows-- that Gen is not as strong, or as resilient as he was. Attolia herself isn't flexible at all (especially at this point in her life) and so I think that contrast of the Gen lying horribly wounded in her dungeon with the Gen healthy (albeit scarred) riding proudly toward the destruction of the thing he stole from her country is really magnetic for her.

I do wish we'd seen a little more of what Eddis was thinking at the time, but that omission might have been part of the point. I wonder if it was hard for her to destroy the stone (I'm almost imagining a Ring-whispering-to-Frodo moment), if she was tempted by the promise of immortality like Attolia assumed, or if she was unconflicted in her decision.

But really, any time Megan writes about faith, I am a complete goner. I haven't read any other fiction so subtly eloquent on the subject.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I just noticed this, on rereading the story: Gen suggests that Helen use a "slingshot," but the description she has in her head is of a sling, not a sling*shot*. Slingshots require vulcanized rubber to make them work... which was invented by Charles Goodyear in 1839, in our world. So I think this is a mistake. A minor one, obviously. It would go in the same box as "granched" :)

[ballerina-222.livejournal.com]

I actually disagree with your comment about the slingshot. Our conception of the slingshot is a pretty modern one. The one that's described in the story is accurate to the time of the books. (I'm just thinking of David and Goliath here, and David with his slingshot.) So I would disagree and say that it's not a mistake at all. But I'm a bit impressed you know when rubber was invented.

And about the story:
I really loved this story, probably the best out of the other short stories. MWT's writing comes out wonderfully here, especially at the end.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

What I meant by that is that the type of projectile weapon she was referring to is a sling, not a slingshot. Mrs. Turner definitely described it as the swinging-over-the-head-to-loose-a-rock-at-a-giant variety, not the pull-back-taut-to-shoot-a-pea-at-my-sister variety.

(Dictionary.com tells me the word "slingshot" wasn't coined until the 40s or 50s and is derived from the word "sling," which comes from Old Norse.)

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

And yes, I totally agree with the last part! This is my favorite of the three short stories :)

[ballerina-222.livejournal.com]

I stand corrected then! Now I feel silly for trying to correct you, when you clearly know more than me.

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

I would like to post something intelligent and constructive, but I can't stop laughing at your description "Oldman!Sounis" XD

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Haha! Thanks for reminding me of this old discussion. I had fun reading it again.

I miss discussions like these. Someone should post one... or I should. Hm... but about what? Anything you want to talk about in the books? ;P

ETA: Oh, I see you've already posted one! Hurray! *hurries to read*

[orphanedhanyou (from livejournal.com)]

MWT uses a few 'modern' words that probably aren't era accurate but she says she set up this world like that on purpose.