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queensthiefSection notes - from "The Queen of Eddis protested" to "He couldn't offend the gods with a pointed stick."
Following my format from last time, I'm posing two questions about all four chapters, and then a unique question per chapter. Then I give my own answers!
The questions were a bit harder to come up with this time - not because there's nothing to think about, but because I keep wanting to ask questions about The King of Attolia - like "How does this status quo of Teleus and the Royal Guard match with the end of The King of Attolia?" or "What's Aris doing being chummy with the king?" or "What is the deal with Gen's health?" or so many more.
Chapter 13:
1) This chapter, as my unique question indicates my own analysis, as a shift in tone. It not only moves the point of view from first person to third after the prologue, it also gives us some of our first real dramatized scenes of connection between any two characters with Sophos and Helen. There's a sense of joy as well as sorrow that it's so quickly ripped away by the responsibilities. This time through, I'm really getting a sense of the symbol of prison that the narrative sets up around Sophos/Sounis - first to his father, then to his kidnappers, then as a slave, and finally as King in exlie. It's interesting that he's happy only twice - here and as a slave. Here, it's the eye of the storm, where he's able to catch his breath with the woman he loves and is friends with. As a slave, he's free to not worry about the future. Both times, it's freedom, but also abdication, indicating that to achieve his happy ending, Sounis must find a way to become his own kind of king - and in this chapter, we begin to see how, in his ability to think through his own circumstances.
2) The Queen of Eddis Laughs - a bit on the nose, but it really captures my sense of the tonal shift.
3) I think the narrative has sowed enough emotional notes that are still unresolved, even apart from the whole King in exile thing - Sophos's hostage mother and sisters, and the fate of Berrone, that the respite here doesn't lose too much narrative steam. It's also a chance to do radical change to the structure of the book in POV without also raising the stakes in a way that might be emotionally difficult for the reader.
Chapter 14:
1) There so much in this chapter - Sounis's attempts to plan his ascension through diplomacy, his first tangling with the Medean ambassador to Attolia (after his tangling with the arson-happy Medean ambassador to Sounis), lots of excellent stuff about my fave Irene and her governing Attolia (A Conspiracy of Kings unfortunately puts her on the back burner a lot, understandably, but this time through, I'm really pleased to see her getting such great moments and status quo establishment), and, of course, Gen using duels in an unorthodox way to measure and manipulate his opponents. It's not quite as powerful as the end of King of Attolia, but then again, it's not a climax.
2) King in Exlie - I've already mentioned this phrase a lot, but I think it's broad enough to capture most of what Sounis is going through here.
3) The wolf, like the prison, I think indicates the ambiguity of being royalty for the main characters. It's terrifying, but if you respect the office/wolf, and make sure you never trust it with your life blindly, you may be able to survive and make the world a better place (as Attolia, the main character here who is identified with the wolf, attempts to do).
Chapter 15:
1) Here, we have a reconnection between Gen and Sophos - but as we discover in the next chapter, though Gen truly does love Sophos (as the beautiful turn of phrase about Sounis holding Attolis's heart in his hands), there's still a distance between Gen's secret intentions and Sophos. It also reminds us of Gen's skills as a thief, as well as his love for the queen (his comment about Dite really hits home how complicated the emotions are in the book - I love Dite for being loyal to and in love with Irene, but I don't really ship them. But it still seems hard on him to be exiled for being a decent person, even if he is much happier.) It functions sort of like the first half of The King of Attolia in microcosm, showing us Gen with a mask, then dropping it for someone who comes close to his heart.
2) A Drink in Attolia - I should think this one is obvious. :)
3) I think there definitely is a point to it beyond an expert tugging on the heartstrings. The loyalty to duty and country has no weight if what they have to sacrifice or minimize has no intensity in our hearts. Seeing how much Gen and Helen love Irene and Sophos makes the choices they powerful.
Chapter 16:
1) This chapter signals to us that the middle section in Attolia is concluding, wrapping up some intermediary threads like the King's attendants (a nicely handled emotional development carried over from The King of Attolia), and launches us directly into Gen's wider plan - and lets us dull elves who weren't paying attention for the last three books that there is indeed such a plan, and Helen and Irene are in on it.
2) The King Leaves - I'm emphasizing roles here, as the overall title is A Conspiracy of Kings, so I think it nicely ties into that.
3) I was recently listening to a podcast on another book series, and the hosts complained that they didn't like the main character because she was born to a wealthy family and had many advantages. This greatly bothered me, because as another wise person on the internet has said, everyone's pain is real relative to themselves, and attempting to make comparisons between people's suffering generally ends up dismissing someone's pain as illegitimate. Even though Gen and Irene and Sophos have had immense resources and luxury compared to those around them, each of them has suffered intensely, and their response to suffering - to take control of their situations and attempt to make the world a better place - is why we love them (or at least, I love them. Some people don't love Irene ;). Now, one can think about whether the king or queen of a country should really be the focus of a story, because of the injustice of the strucutre of the monarchy - but I think that the narrative is very careful to point out that even kings and queens with relatively absolute authority legally do not have practical absolute power, given their reliance on their nobles and other states.
Look forward to discussing this week, concluding next week, and then... :)
Following my format from last time, I'm posing two questions about all four chapters, and then a unique question per chapter. Then I give my own answers!
Questions for all four chapters:
1) What is accomplished in this chapter? (Could also be phrased, "Why does this chapter exist?")
2) If the chapters had titles, what would you call this chapter?
Individual chapter questions:
13: How does this chapter maintain the stakes, while still being a significant change in tone with the humor and romance between Eddis and Sounis?
14: What are some of the ways the image/symbol of the wolf works for you as you read this story?
15: This story works with a lot of repeated patterns - do you think there is significance to hearing of Gen's realized love for Irene, as we later see Helen realizing her love for Sophos?
16: We see a lot of the function of Irene and Gen's Attolia and Attolis identities leading up to this revelation that something more is going on, and Helen is involved. What effect does the reality of royalty have on your emotional reaction to and engagement with these characters?
The questions were a bit harder to come up with this time - not because there's nothing to think about, but because I keep wanting to ask questions about The King of Attolia - like "How does this status quo of Teleus and the Royal Guard match with the end of The King of Attolia?" or "What's Aris doing being chummy with the king?" or "What is the deal with Gen's health?" or so many more.
Chapter 13:
1) This chapter, as my unique question indicates my own analysis, as a shift in tone. It not only moves the point of view from first person to third after the prologue, it also gives us some of our first real dramatized scenes of connection between any two characters with Sophos and Helen. There's a sense of joy as well as sorrow that it's so quickly ripped away by the responsibilities. This time through, I'm really getting a sense of the symbol of prison that the narrative sets up around Sophos/Sounis - first to his father, then to his kidnappers, then as a slave, and finally as King in exlie. It's interesting that he's happy only twice - here and as a slave. Here, it's the eye of the storm, where he's able to catch his breath with the woman he loves and is friends with. As a slave, he's free to not worry about the future. Both times, it's freedom, but also abdication, indicating that to achieve his happy ending, Sounis must find a way to become his own kind of king - and in this chapter, we begin to see how, in his ability to think through his own circumstances.
2) The Queen of Eddis Laughs - a bit on the nose, but it really captures my sense of the tonal shift.
3) I think the narrative has sowed enough emotional notes that are still unresolved, even apart from the whole King in exile thing - Sophos's hostage mother and sisters, and the fate of Berrone, that the respite here doesn't lose too much narrative steam. It's also a chance to do radical change to the structure of the book in POV without also raising the stakes in a way that might be emotionally difficult for the reader.
Chapter 14:
1) There so much in this chapter - Sounis's attempts to plan his ascension through diplomacy, his first tangling with the Medean ambassador to Attolia (after his tangling with the arson-happy Medean ambassador to Sounis), lots of excellent stuff about my fave Irene and her governing Attolia (A Conspiracy of Kings unfortunately puts her on the back burner a lot, understandably, but this time through, I'm really pleased to see her getting such great moments and status quo establishment), and, of course, Gen using duels in an unorthodox way to measure and manipulate his opponents. It's not quite as powerful as the end of King of Attolia, but then again, it's not a climax.
2) King in Exlie - I've already mentioned this phrase a lot, but I think it's broad enough to capture most of what Sounis is going through here.
3) The wolf, like the prison, I think indicates the ambiguity of being royalty for the main characters. It's terrifying, but if you respect the office/wolf, and make sure you never trust it with your life blindly, you may be able to survive and make the world a better place (as Attolia, the main character here who is identified with the wolf, attempts to do).
Chapter 15:
1) Here, we have a reconnection between Gen and Sophos - but as we discover in the next chapter, though Gen truly does love Sophos (as the beautiful turn of phrase about Sounis holding Attolis's heart in his hands), there's still a distance between Gen's secret intentions and Sophos. It also reminds us of Gen's skills as a thief, as well as his love for the queen (his comment about Dite really hits home how complicated the emotions are in the book - I love Dite for being loyal to and in love with Irene, but I don't really ship them. But it still seems hard on him to be exiled for being a decent person, even if he is much happier.) It functions sort of like the first half of The King of Attolia in microcosm, showing us Gen with a mask, then dropping it for someone who comes close to his heart.
2) A Drink in Attolia - I should think this one is obvious. :)
3) I think there definitely is a point to it beyond an expert tugging on the heartstrings. The loyalty to duty and country has no weight if what they have to sacrifice or minimize has no intensity in our hearts. Seeing how much Gen and Helen love Irene and Sophos makes the choices they powerful.
Chapter 16:
1) This chapter signals to us that the middle section in Attolia is concluding, wrapping up some intermediary threads like the King's attendants (a nicely handled emotional development carried over from The King of Attolia), and launches us directly into Gen's wider plan - and lets us dull elves who weren't paying attention for the last three books that there is indeed such a plan, and Helen and Irene are in on it.
2) The King Leaves - I'm emphasizing roles here, as the overall title is A Conspiracy of Kings, so I think it nicely ties into that.
3) I was recently listening to a podcast on another book series, and the hosts complained that they didn't like the main character because she was born to a wealthy family and had many advantages. This greatly bothered me, because as another wise person on the internet has said, everyone's pain is real relative to themselves, and attempting to make comparisons between people's suffering generally ends up dismissing someone's pain as illegitimate. Even though Gen and Irene and Sophos have had immense resources and luxury compared to those around them, each of them has suffered intensely, and their response to suffering - to take control of their situations and attempt to make the world a better place - is why we love them (or at least, I love them. Some people don't love Irene ;). Now, one can think about whether the king or queen of a country should really be the focus of a story, because of the injustice of the strucutre of the monarchy - but I think that the narrative is very careful to point out that even kings and queens with relatively absolute authority legally do not have practical absolute power, given their reliance on their nobles and other states.
Look forward to discussing this week, concluding next week, and then... :)
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Polystrictes and the barons
Date: 4/30/17 11:25 am (UTC)1. I am behind in my reading for this section, but I really will catch up and get some answers to these excellent questions soon. In the meantime, however, the second admission...
2. This section contains my very favourite of all the stories of the gods: Polystrictes and his goats. Eddis draws out the obvious parallel, that lying awake naming off your problems isn’t going to help. In a deft concurrence with Moira’s tale, the solution offered is to take the large canine the gods have provided you with, however frightening that may be in itself, and get your problems into order. Insert Gen or Irene as you please! But would the Sounisian barons be at all pleased to know they had been compared to a bunch of rioting caprines?
In fact, there’s quite a theme of Sophos’ problems being compared to goats, if you recall that he described the servants who wouldn’t rally to defend the villa as looking like a bunch of goats whod just decided they /wouldn’t/ do what had been asked of them.
Btw, has anyone ever asked how MWT knows about goats so well?
Chapter 13
Date: 4/30/17 03:51 pm (UTC)Like the chapter name! XD I like the idea of this chapter as the calm at the eye of the storm, too.
There are points unresolved from the earlier narrative, like Sophos’ missing family; but this chapter also picks up the pace right away by getting back to the question of Gen/Attolis, and what he’s up to...!
More generally on the whole section
Date: 4/30/17 03:52 pm (UTC)“He won’t thank you for a nanny” – Aulus and Boagus, KoA?
“Sophos isn’t illegitimate” – remember Gen discussing his family with Useless the younger?
Re: Polystrictes and the barons
Date: 4/30/17 09:31 pm (UTC)I think any accurate comparison would make the barons of Sounis and Attolia come out unfavorably - because they're a bunch of terrible humans. :)
Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 4/30/17 09:33 pm (UTC)I have to say, I'm kind of surprised about remembering Sophos's father's illegitimacy - it reminds me of just how unstable monarchies actually are in the days when they wielded so much more power. Additionally, so many sighs of relief for poor Agape.
no subject
Date: 5/1/17 12:14 am (UTC)Again, you ask very interesting questions that I would have to mull over for a while. But while I'm here, I think I'll bring up some things that really stood out for me in this reread.
I think in hindsight I used to be so hard on Attolia in ACok. I think it's because seeing her being a little bit more open in KoA, it felt like her development regressed in ACoK. However, in this reread, I didn't feel like that at all. I don't know if it's because I'm reading her voice differently in my head, or because I'm more aware of whose perspective it is that's viewing her, or maybe I actually get her jokes with Gen this time around, but she actually feels *okay*. And I'll probably talk more about Sophos's relationship with Attolia in the next discussion post.
Also, that scene with Eddis at the end of this section??? Oh my, I can't remember having it affect me before as much as it did in this reread.
I also find it kind of funny how Melheret views Attolia. Like I'm so sure that Nahuseresh was so embarrassed by his defeat in Attolia, that he probably went making all kinds of slanderous excuses to save face. I can only imagine what kinds of pitiful things he had to say about her, heh. XD
Also, going back to that scene when Sophos asks Gen about realizing his love for Irene... when do you guys think that happened, that memory that Gen described? In my reread of QoA it seemed like he'd been into her since he saw her dancing in the garden, but it didn't seem so in that conversation.
...the hosts complained that they didn't like the main character because she was born to a wealthy family and had many advantages
That's interesting seeing that the majority of books with any kind of political intrigue usually revolve around people born into privilege and wealth. I wonder if the hosts just avoid reading these kinds of books. To me, it's not so much about how much they have at birth, but what they do with it. There's a reason why we're so much more partial to Sophos who wants to do good things, even if it's a tad naive and idealistic, than his uncle who gorges himself on his wealth.
Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/1/17 12:27 am (UTC)BUT, re-reading now straight after QoA and KoA, I think the reader can see Irene has changed a LOT. Gone is the over-wrought, almost mentally unstable person of QoA; gone too is her almost impatient attitude with Gen of KoA. Irene may be cool, but she is calm. We can see in the small flashes of Attolia/Attolis humour that she loves Gen. What we can also see is that she has expanded on this to entertain, instruct, inform, accept Gen's friend. Think about it! Sophos is the king of the country she's at war with, and she's describing to him how her army is run, how the artillery is organised, advising how to control your barons and face down rebellions...
That's new Irene :) [IMO, that's cool Irene, too!]
Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/1/17 12:35 am (UTC)Also, like I mentioned above, Sophos's parting scene was as equally revealing of Attolia as it was of Eddis. She held her hand the entire time, sparing her from an embrace Eddis might not be able to handle; Sophos barely hesitated from hugging and kissing her too, so... that says something.
Oh! That reminds me. Another thing that I didn't realize until this reread was that apparently, Attolia has given up on trying to make Eugenides act more kingly. I forgot who said it (I think it was the magus), but even though Gen is not kingly, somehow he's managed to terrify his barons into not crossing him. Before my reread, I always had the impression that Attolia's still struggling to make Gen king in ACoK, but apparently now they have an understanding. I think this is important information that I had overlooked, that I might need continuing with the series.
no subject
Date: 5/1/17 05:39 am (UTC)He respects her, but he's also terrified of her.
He did love her after the orange trees, but didn't understand his feelings till he was jealoud of Dite. That's how I interrupted what he says there.
no subject
Date: 5/1/17 12:44 pm (UTC)Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/1/17 12:45 pm (UTC)I think you're right - Gen and Irene have reached a point of equlibrium where she's running most of the kingdom, and Gen is thinking macro and behind the scenes.
Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/1/17 11:22 pm (UTC)Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/2/17 04:21 am (UTC)Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/2/17 11:39 am (UTC)Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/2/17 11:41 am (UTC)Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/2/17 12:04 pm (UTC)Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/2/17 12:59 pm (UTC)Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/3/17 02:31 am (UTC)Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/3/17 04:16 pm (UTC)Re: Polystrictes and the barons
Date: 5/5/17 02:56 am (UTC);)
Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/5/17 10:30 am (UTC)It is for Irene that my heart literally aches and writhes in my chest because I think it reminds me of the universal human condition itself as I see it... perhaps from the specific viewpoint of an empath..... this desperation for shelter and redemption that we all feel. I feel the scared child within her more than any other character and ... that really speaks to me. I also have a thing for ice queens. I love Elsa from Frozen with as much the same veracity as I could have considering the differences in complexity and medium.
I love the intricate, infinite dance between and balancing of the feminine and masculine energies between Eugenides and Irene (and secondarily between Sophos and Helen, and mostly, the four way earth/air/fire/water balancing between them all). How powerful and yet how vulnerable they both are in these ecstatically opposing, astoundingly complementary ways. There are times when Irene "gathers Eugenides in her arms" like a mother does a child or a man does a woman... and simultaneously Eugenides guards and protects Irene's heart as it softens... with the strength and cunning of the gods themselves...
I love how even in physical appearance their energies mix, blend, and complement so far beyond the typical gender binary in which the female character is smaller, shorter, younger, more submissive and less powerful than the larger, older, taller, dominant, assertive male... Stories that cater toward the ego mind are a bore and MWT touches that within all of us that knows that the human condition and the divine condition are both far beyond the binary.
MWT points even these physical traits out over and over and over again... these anti-archetypes that go against what we are used to seeing and hearing about with the intention of asking us to let go of what we know has been how humanity operated in the past but isn't aligned in higher truth.
For example, at least a couple times in either 3rd person omnicient or 3rd person limited (Irene) POV, Irene's and Eugenides' (changing as he is growing) heights are compared as a reference how their relationship dynamic would differ from the typical polarized masculine/feminine norm.
Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/5/17 10:42 am (UTC)Perhaps I'm taking that a little too far, but I know for a fact that on one level, we are all attracted to everything we are not because as individuals we yearn to complete the spectrum of All Possibility through the total of our own expression and coming into Union with another who embodies the other half of the spectrum of expressive possibility on behalf of us.
I adore how Irene has this consistent, subtle sense of humor blossoming throughout the entire 3rd and 4th books.
One of my favorite exchanges of all time is from KofA:
"Am I insufficiently king-like? Costis has been telling me so."
"Unkingly in so many ways, my King. Not the least of which is letting your guard tell you so."
LOL
Regarding the criticism of having Kings and Queens being the focus of stories...
Date: 5/5/17 11:03 am (UTC)In one way I empathize slightly with this critic (although like you, I disagree with their statement). Until I got my hands on MWT's work, I was also ready to roll my eyes and snore when I hear that some story is about kings and queens. It took me like 4 years just to watch Frozen because I was like "ulgh another princess story? give me a break?" and then Frozen blew me out of the water because it was the very opposite of how the typical painfully one-dimensional cloying fairytale princess story usually goes. And I can say the same exact thing about how the the Queen's Thief series appeared to me in the beginning. I had to read it for work (I was working on a literature curriculum for my school). And I was initially indifferent until the second half of The Thief drew me in and here I am, living and breathing these masterpieces... on my 4th 5th 6th rereads, walking around in an ecstatic haze of love for these characters, these sovereigns ... these books, their themes, their motifs, their tone, glorifying in even the specific words that MWT uses consistently... "drily" for one.. "amused" for another.... reverent when one of the many particularly gifted fan fiction writers out there can capture MWT's tone and narrative grace and help me "fill in the blanks" that MWT so masterfully leaves for us to stir our own literary inspiration within.
Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/5/17 11:49 am (UTC)I think.. in merely describing how Irene openly, subjectively illustrates the intricacies and technicalities of her reign down to the most minute detail for Sophos to draw from ... as you said an_english_girl... that's a really huge gift and as much an act of courage to trust on Irene's part as was taking Helen's hand in her time of need.
Also, I think in keeping Attolia somewhat subdued in her presence in CofK, what the author means to show us is that it takes a long time.. years and years to heal from what Irene (and Gen, really) have both been through in terms of lifelong trauma and abuse.
Although Eugenides suffered the premature death of his mother from falling, a fall out with his father (who did love him the whole time, as it showed eventually), loneliness and isolation that kind of came with his chosen profession and the mockery of his cousins, and even Sophos and Helen had their own share of loss, Irene by far has had the most traumatic past, the most exposure to utter corruption of character, abuse, and neglect all around her from the very beginning... at one point in QofA that describes her envy of Helen, she laments that Helen's brother had died of an illness, (and another, I believe, died in a horse riding accident while running wild and free through the mountains, probably doing what he loved... right?) while her brother had been assassinated. The comparison between the down home, wholesome culture that Helen was born into and the cesspit of snakes and vipers Irene was born into...especially struck me here.
and yet she still took on what I interpret to be far more than saving her skin from the REAL fiend from hell who was her fiance (in QofA, it details how she would listen silently to his truly evil plans before she poisoned him. Had he had one saving grace about him I'm sure she would have abided by the engagement) and saving her country that was a large part ungrateful to her for her efforts because the patriarchy merely saw a woman overstepping her bounds.
On Irene and Sophos
Date: 5/5/17 12:05 pm (UTC)Several or many times across the books, she says things, "self-mockingly." (MWT's exact word) She mocks herself, and has an innate belief that she is not good enough or deserving.
Which is a very similar quality that Sophos has, to be "self mocking," and with an innate belief that he is not good enough or deserving, only for him it's about totally opposite things. Irene and Sophos appear to be very different people and yet there's this quality that they both possess and yet the nature and basis for this quality is totally different.
*
Irene* grasps at power while Sophos runs from it. (*not out of greed, but for survival)
Sophos openly loves while Irene retreats into herself.
Irene mocks herself, believing she doesn't deserve to love or be loved. Whereas I don't think Sophos has problems giving and receiving warmth and affection to those close to him; he is so sweetly affectionate to his little sisters, the way he describes how his father sweeps his mother into his arms when they finally reunite... he wears his heart on his sleeve with those he is and isn't close to.
*
Sophos mocks himself, believing he doesn't deserve to be in a position of influence and power because he struggles to be brave and manly and authoritative and all other expressions of traditionally masculine power. And in the end, Sophos grows into his ability to hold Power as Irene surrenders into her yearning to Love and Be Loved.
Re: Regarding the criticism of having Kings and Queens being the focus of stories...
Date: 5/5/17 12:51 pm (UTC)Aris
Date: 5/5/17 02:12 pm (UTC)Aris' disbelief that Helen could be anything other than as terrifying / inherently bad as Irene. This belief that a woman can't hold positions of power without resorting to deceit and manipulation...
Aris has no idea what it would have been like to be young Irene where to submit to marrying a man like her fiance without fighting for her life and her country would be worse than death itself. And this is also representative of the fact that our society does not allow men to truly empathize with women, and see through women's eyes, because those in male bodies are consistently forbidden from expressing the feminine aspect of their own minds, bodies, hearts and souls. And the brave, progressive, forward thinking men that do, are often saddled with risk of significant consequences.
Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/5/17 02:46 pm (UTC)Might be a bit far. I certainly wouldn't say so of myself =P
Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/5/17 02:48 pm (UTC)Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/5/17 04:14 pm (UTC)I think it's significant that Irene is taller than Eugenides (greater height being an archetypically masculine trait) in that she has had to express herself in a hyper-masculine manner, 100% of her focus and energy has been in maintaining power/rule/sovereign (a masculine energy) over her country. And she's had to fight tooth and nail for it. (fighting for the survival of something is also a masculine energy).... She's had to give up the archetypically feminine traits of feeling and emotion and connection and love and nurturing her inner child.... Twice or even three times Irene in QofA observes Eugenides's changing height as it relates to her own height... and she is distressed about the fact that he's just a boy or not yet a man or somewhere in between. When she meets him again 2 years after she cuts off his hand and he's grown noticeably taller, she asks herself when she had "sunk so low that she had begun torturing boys/children." She recognizes the child in him, because she has never been able to heal the lost child in herself, the little girl that still longs to be protected:
"She suppressed a perverse desire for her nurse to come to her bedside and chase away the shadows..." (QofA)
and this other heartbreaking scene where years after the woman had left, the Queen had commanded a former nurse of hers to come back to serve as one of her attendants and the woman, now middle aged with her own husband and children, refuses and tells the Queen that there's no one here she could trust... in that scene my heart broke for the little girl Irene calling for her mother or her nurse and nobody coming...
It's also significant how Irene is described as a "tall, lanky, awkward girl with a long face." Although that's not an uncommon description for women who mature to be above average in height, I find its emphasis also symbolic of her discomfort with her full height/elements of the masculine role she would taken on.. even though on another level Attolia loves power... ...there's still significance to how uncomfortable she is being pushed into that role.
And then there's Gen. I find it so significant that he's small. Although I don't think he's more than a couple inches shorter than Irene upon maturity. In one part of The thief, 15-year old Gen remarks that he hates that he's so small because it allows other men to feel as if they have superiority, physical power over him (again, not uncommon in the world)....and yet would he have fit into the hypoducts of the Attolian palace if he had been a larger person? Would he be able to move as agilely, silently, as his thief profession requires had he not been nimble, quick and light as a cat, leaping across atriums 4 stories high, not to mention his one-handed handstands? (at one point in KofA, Gen is compared to a "feral cat," fighting against Telius, a "barnyard dog"... and the feral cat wins: "I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT!!!!!" (Costis covers his ears) .... I think Gen's compact size reflects infinitely how he moves silently and sticks to the shadows and his brilliant masterminding is sheathed in shadows. If "Shadow" for Irene had a negative connotation, I think for Gen "shadow" has a positive connotation. he does not take a direct route to anything and the indirect, sly, connived nature of operation is a yin/feminine trait that he is the master of.
I also notice that MWT consistently indicates the male characters' eating habits. Gen is always not eating upon being in stressful situations (he gets rations in prison, but rarely eats them) and he's nonplussed to let his sand-filled dinner go and pick at things. (no surprise he's light and small and can wear Irene's nightshirts comfortably. (This by the way, is one of my most favorite details... it makes me reminiscent of how profoundly comforting it is to wear a partner's clothing and be engulfed in their scent and their essence.)
Re: More generally on the whole section
Date: 5/5/17 04:14 pm (UTC)Whereas, Sophos, who grows up to be a tall, muscular, strapping dude "who [Eddis] could easily dropping a man with a single blow" is always eating. The Magus even has to assure him that he "has enough money to keep him supplied with roast chickens." And that other slave is about to offer Sophos that cake. The cake. He wants it "a lot."
Not to mention that Sophos, in personality and at heart is just as his nickname implies, gentle, soft as a "Bunny" (although I'm not clear why he's also called Lion.... is that a family / lineage nod? I remember Sophos father had the Lionshead ring as his symbol of recognition) Sophos's imposing physical stature, especially with his scarred lip that turns his smile into a leer contrasts magnificently with his soft, feminine personality, his reticence, self-consciousness and sense of failure initially about "being a real man, being the man his father wants him to be, being the man his country needs him to be...... just what INCREDIBLE ironic juxtaposition in one character.
And finally, Helen. I love how she is described. She's "darkskinned, short, (more than a head shorter than Sophos, her head comes up to his chest, too broad-shouldered to be considered petite-- by this I imagine she's kind of built like Simone Biles, athletic and stocky and durable. Stands like a soldier, her hair is cut short like a mans, hawk-faced, with a broken nose that healed crooked. At one point in QofA, Helen is wearing trousers and one of the Ephrata guards mistakes her for a "young man." (and she gives him a look that would melt lead. lol)
I think it's interesting how over and over again, Helen's appearance is mentioned, how she is not the least bit traditionally beautiful as queens are expected to be (although her radiant smile IS) and yet is one hell of a queen. "A gifted ruler." the Magus calls her. I think in this MWT intended a strong push against the beautiful queen archetype-- to elevate the collective to openly acknowledge universal biological draw toward beautiful women (beauty or lack there of will never go totally unnoticed) while at the same time decimating the idea that beauty is necessarily tied to a woman's success and happiness and civic support. In a way, (although on a literary level, it makes Helen's personal story the least compelling) Helen is the anchor for the rest of the sovereigns when it comes to sound physical, mental, emotional, and social health. She pretty much has drawn the long end of the stick all her life and yet is a magnetic, approachable, reasonable, admirable person in every area. And she's also badass well rounded talented. Can hack it with the ladies in their spinning circles, can play a mean game of chess, can hunt, fight, duel, ride with the best of them. Of the four sovereigns she seems most experienced in and comfortable outwardly expressing the masculine and feminine aspects of her personality (her butch hairstyle, her trousers and yet she'll still wear a nice dress and opulent jewels at formal dinners even if they were her attendants' choices and not her own because actually Helen doesn't know much or care much about fashion- that's Gen's job. lol)
Re: On Irene and Sophos
Date: 5/5/17 06:30 pm (UTC)Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/5/17 06:52 pm (UTC)Re: Aris
Date: 5/5/17 07:13 pm (UTC)Re: Aris
Date: 5/5/17 07:41 pm (UTC)(Don't forget flaying. :)
RE: Re: Aris
Date: 5/5/17 08:32 pm (UTC)Re: Aris
Date: 5/5/17 08:48 pm (UTC):)
Re: Aris
Date: 5/6/17 03:54 am (UTC)I think though, the part that lead me to assess Aris's character in that way was his remark about Eddis. Pretty much he says that Eddis could not POSSIBLY be the amazing, positive, shining light of a ruler she is. That the only way she as a WOMAN could keep her power as she has would have to be through similar malicious means as Attolia. When in truth, Eddis wasn't that at all.
Perhaps Aris isn't really an oppressor of women but he was awfully skeptical of her having held her throne by ethical and positive means. He just couldn't imagine Eddisian barons hononing her out of real love and not fear. It's not a surprising response, but i do react to it a bit. Most who are afraid.. have no idea what it's like to not be afraid.
And you're absolutely right that Aris's love for and desire to serve the Queen of Attolia is admirable, deep and real, even if they are tainted with fear.
Re: Aris
Date: 5/6/17 03:57 am (UTC)That precise word in the QT series has thus far been reserved for only when Irene is exercising her sense of humor / showing affection / threatening her staff. =)
Re: Aris
Date: 5/6/17 03:58 am (UTC)Re: Aris
Date: 5/6/17 03:59 am (UTC)Re: Irene in ACoK
Date: 5/6/17 05:52 am (UTC)specifically, though, I was thinking of how in heterosexual relationships, men are attracted to women because they are the opposite of a man ("everything they are not") and vice versa for hetero women.
And in same-gender relationships, there is still the attraction to one's yin/yang opposite.
Re: Aris
Date: 5/6/17 06:15 am (UTC)On a side note, we know less of the greater court of Sounis other than there were at least a couple rebel barons, and a selfish King...
If Eddis is a functional country, Attolia is a dysfunctional state, I imagine Sounis is somewhere in the middle like Attolia, with Sophos's uncle "who is a pig" (who is also a man, and therefore could probably get away with certain behavior than Irene could not... in the same way Donald Trump (and Bernie Sanders) could seemingly "get away" with a lot more free expression of their ego whims than Hillary Clinton ever felt she could in the last American political campaigns.
The contrasts between MWT's depiction of the Irene/Gen relationship (beautifully, tragically-- dysfunctional, at least in the beginning, and yet blossoming into something healthier, gentler and more tender as time goes on. ) What with all the referencing to throwing things, striking each other, throwing ink pots at each other. (by each other I mean Irene to Gen) I want to stress that I'm not saying one is better than the other because one is more functional than the other-- for the purpose of the story there's no doubt which one is more enthralling and heart rendering...
But then you have on the other side, the Sophos/Helen relationship, healthy and functional, where they discuss more than once how they "could throw something, but it probably wouldn't help," "not everyone throws ink pots when they're angry" they acknowledge how comfortable and peaceful they are with each other in profound contrast to their friends.
I interpret this as a foreshadowing of how Attolia the country, the court, the barons--will eventually grow and change for the better as Eugenides gentles its people (as he is softening Irene) by pardoning those who were treacherous against them even when according to the old law, they deserved otherwise and having the cunning to figure out who was behind the treachery (Erondites' connections). I see this story about how one man with his other half in his divine union can literally transform the masses and that's why the monarchs and the nations are literally referred to under the same name and it's only by reading the context of a sentence can we discern which is being spoken about... I feel the author to be using the evolutions of the individuals to foreshadow the greater evolutions of the nations.
Re: Aris
Date: 5/6/17 06:18 am (UTC)Re: Aris
Date: 5/6/17 06:38 am (UTC)I was so deeply moved at the end by the beauty and the genius behind how Eugenides very intentionally picked Costis out of a crowd of many for his uniquely "confounded, asinine patron sense of honor" (~Aris, KofA, p. 310 =) before he baited him and jabbed at him to his breaking point where he punched the king in the mouth and then got further hand picked to stand witness to the truth of the King and Queen of Attolias' actual relationship and actual intentions for the nation...
The King knew all along that Costis had the honor and the depth to sincerely try to "puzzle through the convolutions of human relationships" on behalf of the momentum needed to change their court, their people, their culture, their world, one person at a time. That change is a very difficult thing, a very uncertain thing, as you said, ibmiller. Perhaps this was quite literally the Attolian court's first hesitant taste of mercy/pardon, however ironic, however much an exercise of the King's sense of humor it was... and perhaps the irony behind it made the first taste of the medicine go down easier. The first step toward functional away from dysfunctional.
Re: Aris
Date: 5/6/17 06:40 am (UTC)On HELEN, In response to this prompt in the OP:
Date: 5/6/17 08:02 am (UTC)Throughout all the books, Helen has always struck me as MWT's Mother Theresa sort of figure. I'm not sure if that's the right metaphor, but it's the best I can think of right now... Helen is also flawed and vulnerable in certain places enough that I am able to see her as not some Goddess on a pedestal, but deeply human: in her consistent, nagging guilt for having sent Eugenides into danger again and again, in how she sits with her knees curled up under her dress when she's feeling vulnerable, in her angry tears she wipes away with her underskirt, in how she's "stung" by Irene's insincere smile, in her scowl, in how she's really not sure about her personal style and some fashion choices she makes are the results of her attendants "having bullied her into wearing things," in how she's not totally unaffected by not being as pretty as she thinks her people might want her to be but ultimately she really doesn't care... But undeniably Eddis the person, with her hearty, authentic, easy smile and confidence in her position on the gender/royalty spectrum to "snort indelicately" if she wants to, with the tidal wave of both divine and civic support behind her reign, with her magnetic personality and gifted capacity for leadership, is certainly the sovereign individual of the four that most consistently has her shit together.
And how beautifully touching, ironic, infinite, astounding, but really, in literary terms, chronologically natural, that it will be Eddis the nation to be the one that will lose it all... While Eddis itself may not have been a utopia, there was a divinely orchestrated utopian quality to Eddis Helen's reign, as if the gods knew her particular throne would have the greatest challenge of all, to protect her people from the impending eruption of the Sacred Mountain... and it would take not only her union with Sophos but Eugenides and Irene as well...four sovereign individuals united, to create means vast enough to move a whole country to safety.
I am interested in what others have thought about why Helen was directed by the gods to be Eddis, and not Eddia. I know the literal reason given is "because she would be the last sovereign of Eddis before Eddis is leveled by the volcano," but I feel there's even deeper meaning there. (Also, I don't personally see a connection between being the last monarch and needing the king's title... maybe to be so just sticks to tradition/custom more closely.) The gods directed her, a woman, to choose the masculine form of her title over the feminine as if to say that what is to come, as final ruler, would require a union of yin-yang, masculine, feminine energies.
In terms of feeling the freest of the four to express that she has both yin and yang energies within her, the details MWT offers of Helen's outermost expression of herself are distinct: she wears trousers more than dresses during an era where that would be very uncommon, her hair is cut short like a man's, she partakes in traditionally feminine and masculine past times equally, or maybe even more toward the traditionally masculine. There's the part of TT where they Helen's character is introduced and she's playing a game of chess with her attendants, which I interpret as MWT's way of saying she exercises her masculine intellect even in her leisure time. In direct contrast to this scene are the portrayals of Irene with her attendants where they engage in female-style gossip and probably spend more time admiring the latest fashions than strategizing over a chess board .....Irene finds it beneath herself to partake but she allows it because there's part of her that is influenced by it, and in a way I think she longs for that kind of distinctly feminine banter.
(cont. in next post)
Cont...Re: On HELEN, In response to this prompt in the OP:
Date: 5/6/17 08:02 am (UTC)And finally, I'm so moved by the part where Helen indicates that the eruption is going to be beyond their lifetimes but the vastness of their responsibility to prepare for it fills Helen's every waking moment in this lifetime.