Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

In the past, some folks have Feared Us when we've thrown a fit.

http://fusenumber8.blogspot.com/2007/01/five-favorite-posts-of-year.html (see #5)

http://sounis.livejournal.com/277675.html

http://sounis.livejournal.com/282763.html

From:

I wish I'd saved the pictures of Scruffy Sophos and Orlando Bloom Sophos. The links no longer work.

From:

an-english-girl.livejournal.com

Wise thought!
I've just checked my Kindle, and it's NOT shown on the updated cover images there. Who has a new copy of The Thief?
(off topic but curious: QoA hasn't had the Kindle cover updated!)

From:

bookwormbekah.livejournal.com

It does Not have the medal. I think it is because they are trying to promote it as a teen book and the Newbery award is for youth fiction.

From:

readsintrees.livejournal.com

*scowls*

From:

A Newbery is kind of a big deal. I have the new covers and the medal is indeed missing. It's a good point, maybe it was a marketing choice. But WTH Greenwillow?! Leaving it off is not cool.

From:

Oh, I wish we'd have saved the images. They were epic.

From: (Anonymous)

"Sophos is not Orlando Bloom. Sophos is his own man. Change it! Change it!"

The Sophos-scruff debacle was the best! XD

-Lady Jane, not signed in

From: (Anonymous)

The physical copies do indeed not have the medal. If Megan was okay with it, I assumed it was to get the series out of the middle grade slot.

We might want to ask her first before we send angry letters on her behalf. XD

-Lady Jane, not signed in

From:

Here's Bearded Sophos:https://deirdrea.wordpress.com/2009/12/17/a-conspiracy-of-kings-and-some-other-news/

Here's slightly Scruffy Sophos: http://www.bloggang.com/data/f/froggie/picture/1271778454.jpg

And here's Clean-Shaven Sophos: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gZW10xq-pDs/SjBAt6yHsDI/AAAAAAAAB74/Yp7Lsbc4mTY/s1600/a

From what I remember, he kind of had a pencil-thin mustache at one point, (Orlando Bloom Sophos) but I can't find that pic anywhere.

From: (Anonymous)

I agree! It *is* a big deal. Why should it discourage people from reading the book if it actually *won* an award?

*sigh*

I guess the bigger question is, do teens really avoid reading books aimed at younger audiences? A lot of what I read as a teen were children's books. I read pretty much all of Shannon Hale's books in my late teens (and she's also a Newberry winner). The YA community is the first to speak up against adults looking condescendingly down on YA books. I find it rather hypocritical if they do the same for MG
><.

From: (Anonymous)

See, am I the only one who doesn't want these books out of the MG slot? It would prove all the more how thoughtful and complex children's books could be. I feel after seeing countless goodreads reviews saying things like "Oh, it was good for a kid's book," or "Oh it was bad, but younger people might like it" (not about QT, but about MG books in general) only reinforce a strange stereotype that children's books are somehow of a lower quality. If every time we have an amazing children's book promoted to YA, that would only corroborate people's assumptions that if a book is good, then it must be for an older audience. Which is simply not true.

- Leng (who is too cranky to sign in)

From: (Anonymous)

Oh, and I'd just like to add (clearly I have too many thoughts about this topic), isn't it much easier for older people to read down anyway, rather than for younger people to read up? Now that QT is marketed for YA, there are younger people who might not have as easy of an access to it anymore, if for example their school or parents won't allow them to read it. But there's really no problem at all if it stays in MG, because anyone older is free to pick the series up.

From:

freenarnian.livejournal.com

Are these the images you're looking for?

http://sounis.livejournal.com/439067.html

From:

freenarnian.livejournal.com

I first read The Thief as a teen, but then, I'm a life-long lover of "children's books."

Personally, I'm not sure what the logic is behind all the marketing to teens. A growing number of adults are reading YA, I've heard, so I'm wondering if this isn't yet another case of trying desperately to tap into the Game of Thrones audience. I was thinking about this in regards to some of the aesthetic choices for the new editions.

Meh. *shrug*

From:

Yes, that's them! I love the part about prettying up Sophos AND his horse.

From:

readsintrees.livejournal.com

Why not just put them in BOTH areas? I see other books (Harry Potter, The Golden Compass, The Graveyard Book, The Book Thief) that get put into children's, teens, AND adult sections of the same bookstore.

From:

Oh, there are many wonderful books in the MG slot, and I have many favorite series that are MG. Enola Holmes being one of them. However, I've never felt that QT is appropriate for MG. My reasons are...

(1) People won't read them, because they assume they are "just for kids" or they are shelved in places adults and teenagers do not go.

For example: in my library, the MG is downstairs next to the picture books while the YA is next to the adult books. QT is shelved in the YA at my library, but if it was downstairs, I don't see many adults feeling comfortable looking for things to read where all the toddlers are running around, if they're not there with kids themselves.

(2) Content. Most parents would think MG books are fine for their ten-year-old or even younger. Core audience for MG is 8-12. However, you'll find several reviewers on Amazon for the first Enola Holmes book, who insist this book is not appropriate for the MG (8-12) audience it is marketed to.

The first book opens in East End Victorian London and describes the Jack the Ripper murders, drunkards, and prostitutes. The scene is not without taste and is only there to establish setting but nothing there had more graphic detail than QT might use.

QT has amputation, torture, slavery and other ghastly, violent details. Also, there are words like... ahem... (female wolf) and I forgot till my recent re-read that Sophos says "son of a (female wolf)." I could see many parents uncomfortable with their children under twelve reading these like the Enola books.

If QT were a TV series it would be, at least, PG-13.

From:

It seems to be chance whether QT ends up in YA or MG. I've seen them in both sections at bookstores and libraries.

Why isn't there a section of awesome, timeless books for almost all ages?

From:

manderelee.livejournal.com

Lol, Lady Jane, and don't forget the words "bastard" and "gods damn"!

Anyway, I seem to have a lot of feelings about this topic so if I'm coming off a little strongly, I want to assure you that I'm not angry with *you*. I'm actually very glad to have a forum where we can discuss this issue. It's really more of the system in general that I have a beef with.

I'll address your 2nd point first. I went to a school system where Deborah Ellis was a staple in primary school. In Grade 6, one of our required school readings was The Breadwinner, which is about a girl in war-torn Afghanistan who had to dress up as a boy to earn a living for her family. There was also an amputation scene in that book, not just for one person, but several people in a row, as well as an impending stoning of a couple of adulterers. There was a point when the protagonist was so desperate for a living that she had to resort to grave digging. This was an 11 year old girl. The book was aimed for young readers. In grade 7, we read Looking for X, also by Deborah Ellis, with the infamous first line of, "My mother was an exotic dancer." We also had to read The Underground Railroad, and I think we can all pretty much agree that the life and times of Harriet Tubman were not peaches and cream.

(As a tangent, I want to reassure that Torontonian children didn't just read these depressing books. We also read Narnia and Spiderwick and Maniac Magee and plenty of other fun, adventurous MG books.)

In hindsight, QoA might pale in comparison to the bleakness of The Breadwinner. I don't want this to be a competition of which books are more violent (which I'll talk a bit about later as well), but I guess I just want to explain why I think the series is NOT too mature for MG readers. As a matter of fact, I don't think QoA in particular is unique in its choice of presenting violence. There are many MG books that deal with very harrowing matters. Ultimately, parents have the most control over what their children consume. I won't argue with that, and I don't want to remove that control from them either. That said, I've also seen parents say that Spirited Away and Ponyo were not appropriate movies for children, and I think that's saying something.

This brings me to your 1st point. Yes, I'm aware that there are people who won't touch the children's shelves with a ten foot pole. And I would argue that this is exactly the reason why we need to keep QT in MG. It's the reason why we need the MWTs and the Deborah Ellises and the Frances Hardinges and the Lloyd Alexanders in children's shelves. People have this lamentable opinion that children's shelves are full of nothing but vapid fluff. And whenever we actually get books aimed at younger audiences that is NOT vapid fluff, the first reaction is to remove them from the children's shelves, because they don't conform with the stereotype of vapid fluff. So what do you end up with except for a children's shelf filled with vapid fluff? It's an unfortunate cycle of self-fulfilling prophecy.

I also want to say that I don't necessarily advocate for a lot of violence in children's books, or books in general. Nor do I think that profundity necessarily comes with the presence of much violence. And I think the system we have right now only exacerbates those problems, because it is set up so that violence is meant to attract a more mature audience, and thus legitimizes the false belief that grit and grimness and edginess translate to some kind of greater literary merit, because it's what "the older people read." And I don't really agree with that.

I guess this brings up a bigger question of well, when should children really be able to read books that deal with tough subjects? Maybe I'm an outlier in believing that children's shelves shouldn't be filled with just unicorns and rainbows. Maybe the general consensus is that they *should* be. I don't know.

From: (Anonymous)

EXACTLY
~Helen
[oh bother I'm still logged out]
:)

From:

agh-4.livejournal.com

Thank you for doing the Most Important work and tracking these down! ibmiller, you were wondering about the images during the last chat?

From:

freenarnian.livejournal.com

I merely threw every Sounis-and-ACoK-related word I could think of into Google image search, and there they were.

From:

She uses them rarely, but they do pop up! I really like her uses of narrative profanity filters, namely Costis comparing Gen's swearing to a layered pastry. XD

Oh, I didn't think you were angry at me! Unless you were? Hmm... Don't worry, I jest.

I am familiar with the Breadwinner, and all I remember of people's reaction to it was, they give this to kids? XD

I had a similar experience in schooling with a story called, The Little Match Girl. So, a child in the East End tries to sell matches and when no one buys them, she dies! O_0

Anyhow, we are in total agreement that books do not need a lot of grit or violence to be intelligent, great books. Also, I have no problem with children's books addressing more serious matters. A Series of Unfortunate Events and Sharon Creech's books are some that come to mind. Even Nancy Drew and the Boxcar Children had kids going through some bad stuff. The Boxcar Children were homeless! Children's classics like The Little Princess, Heidi, Caddie Woodland are others I would mention.

I have seen some reviewers for Enola Holmes state that these books are "intelligent" and therefore shouldn't be MG, which is so insulting! You think kids aren't intelligent? I would never claim that as an argument for a book not being MG. MG does not need to exclusively be filled with Magical Pink Pony Power.

Mostly, my issues lie in that there is really no other way to judge a book's content then the age range it is marketed to. I mean, MG, YA, and Adult are technically supposed to be reading levels, right? Is there any scientific way to judge reading levels?

How a book gets marketed seems to be based solely on the age of the protagonist. Nancy Springer has gone on record saying that she did not intend Enola to be an MG series, but her publisher put it there because Enola was fourteen. There was not really any other reason. ????

Thus, when you throw any sort rating system out the window when it comes to MG, YA, and Adult how is anyone suppose to make informed choices around here?

That's when Enola, an amazing book, gets a one-star review on Amazon saying, OMG, I was reading this book out loud to my daughter and on the third page it talks about a prostitute who was cut open!!!!!! And thus, Nancy Springer's sales could be negatively affected by someone misjudging her book.

Now, I understand where content (like reading level) can be very subjective and is something that, at the end of the day, is totally up to parents and the individual child. Each child is different and has different needs. My older sister was, apparently, not allowed to watch Shirly Temple movies. Not because my mother thought they weren't good for children, but because they made her cranky? XD One can't always predict who will think what is okay for kids and what isn't.

I'm not fond of the practice of libraries not allowing children to check out YA, for example, or libraries banning books altogether. I don't see how that is their responsibility. I read YA long before I was technically in that age range, and I don't see any particular problem with that as long as the parent and individual child are aware and informed.

I understand it better with school libraries, because a parent may think that's a safe sandbox, where you don't have to pay attention to what you're kids are seeing, but like you said, there can be some pretty violent, bleak books on the required reading list, so is that really ever true?

From:

On the other issue, there are, of course, people who will dismiss MG books, automatically, simply because they are MG. The trick is not to tell them! However, my fear is great authors losing sales, because of being misjudged. It certainly becomes that self-fulfilling prophecy, but the immediate future is great books losing sales, which irks me!

The other side of my concern is adults not wanting to look creepy by wandering around the kid areas or not going in there because that's where the five-year-olds are playing with the trains and being noisy. Thus, awesome books like QT can get missed by potential readers and awesome authors, again, loose sales.

YA always seemed to be more accessible to both adults and kids or am I wrong and is that no longer the middle ground that it was when I was a teen? Now, may that be because publishers figured out adults were reading YA? What do you think?

So, can't some books that are good for multiple ages be shelved in MG and YA and maybe even Adult? Hmm...? Am I crazy?

PS: After writing all this, I just remembered I sent you my Enola Holmes story, so you're already familiar with it. XD

From:

Is YA getting more restrictive to children? When I was in the MG age range, YA was still considered mostly kid's books. My library didn't even have a separate section for them. MG and YA were all shelved together.

As I remember it, the Barnes and Noble I went to as a teen had all the fiction upstairs. The "kid area" had picture books and MG plus places for the kids to play. A bridge area held all the YA and rather symbolically connected the kid's area to the adult area.

I thought the attitude at the time was more that YA was where books ended up that adults would like but weren't so inappropriate for kids that they shouldn't read them: ie. no graphic sex, violence, or language.

From:

If, by word of mouth, millions of people can be convinced that Harry Potter is not just for kids, we should be able to do the same for Eugenides. Sticker or no sticker. *mic drop*

From:

Where's my standing ovation gif?! Bravo, well said.

From:

manderelee.livejournal.com

Lol, no no, I'm not angry at you. No worries ^^

Deborah Ellis actually came to my school to talk about Breadwinner!! Author visits are great!! Hm, maybe the choice of books depends on the demographic as well? Toronto is so diverse, and the neighbourhood I grew up in had an Afghan community.

Ah yes! You mentioned some great examples. How could I have forgotten about A Series of Unfortunate Events? That was so popular series for kids when I was growing up.

Mostly, my issues lie in that there is really no other way to judge a book's content then the age range it is marketed to. I mean, MG, YA, and Adult are technically supposed to be reading levels, right? Is there any scientific way to judge reading levels?

Ah I think I'm starting to get your point here. Yes, I agree there's no easy way to determine what content is appropriate for a certain age. We'll always have advanced readers, and we'll always have books that can handle certain topics better than others. As for reading level, however, yes there is actually a scientific way to judge reading levels! It's called lexile. It was something I learned back when I used to work at BiblioCommons, and some libraries would include this in their catalogue displays. For example, according to Boston Public Library, The Hunger Games has a metric of 810L for its reading level. It doesn't seem to be a very popular metric right now, but if it takes and more people become accustomed to it, that's one way we can actually determine reading levels. However, this is mostly based on difficulty of text, so like vocabulary. I don't think it takes into account the seriousness of the subject matter.

It's great you brought up the topic of making informed choices, because it made me realize that I've been projecting a lot of my own experiences as a reader into this issue. I've never really made informed choices about the books I read when I was younger, lol. My parents are non-readers, and apart from telling me not to read books to distract me from school, they don't tell me what to read in my free time otherwise. How do I choose books? I read their summary. I try the first chapter. If it interests me, I try it. It didn't matter what "level" it was in. If it made me uncomfortable, I stop reading it. It was pretty straight forward. I'm actually a lot choosier now as an adult than I was back when I was a tween.

And I agree that the problem really is that it's tough to determine the subject matters inside a book if we didn't have MG/YA/Adult categories. But I guess, my problem is that trying to box books into these categories isn't really even solving the problem (IMHO they're trite categories that is based more on superiority complex than anything), and that maybe we need to explore other ways of allowing readers to discover what they want to read.

It's interesting that you brought up the age of the protagonists. I'm wondering if that's why Moribito totally flunked in North American markets. It's a children's book, but Balsa was 30, wasn't she? (I think you're the one who recced this book to me, Lady Jane!)

Now that I think about it, we have some parents here in Sounis, right? It might be nice to ask this question. How do you guys choose the books your children read?

I think if something is really good and the publisher spends a reasonable amount in marketing, sales will be good regardless of whether books are in MG or YA. Percy Jackson, for example, is an MG series that does quite well with sales, I believe. The misjudging thing isn't the fault of the book - it's the fault of the reader. (I would know, because I do it all the time with love triangles, haha.) And that's why I think it's important to change the perception of readers when it comes to children's books. (Though nobody will change my mind about love triangles!)

I think when the YA shelf became all black covers with one-line titles, it stopped becoming inviting to me. XD

No, you're not crazy, and I totally agree. Like I said above, I really don't think MG/YA/Adult are good boxes for books anyway. We should just find other ways to categorize them.

You did, yes! I started reading it this week! =D I'll probably message you about it once I get further in the story. ^__^

Edited Date: 5/6/17 02:56 pm (UTC)

From:

manderelee.livejournal.com

Aww, thanks! ^__^;

From: