After lurking for about a year...

[crazyviolin.livejournal.com]

After fighting with the internet, I've finally managed to create an account.

I read the books out of order since a teacher recommended it to me aged ten and I thought it was fantastic, but I was reluctant to buy The Thief in case Gen was different to Eugenides although I had noticed the references to 'Gen' in Queen. Obviously I was wrong and, when a lack of books caused me to purchase it, The Thief has been my favourite book ever since. KoA was, of course, fantastic, but I remember being really upset about the POV and Gen's personality issues. Costis was just in the way and I couldn't see what was happening to the only character that mattered to me when I first read it. However, this community really helped and I read the book again, after realising that perhaps I'd read it a little too quickly (one night). Soon learnt to love the book and the new characters introduced.

Well, I found this community in about November '05 and I've been lurking ever since. But I do have a few questions I was wondering if anyone knew the answers too...

1)Collins Paperback, Pg16, right after the magus tells Gen he won't go back to prison- 'Prisoners left the king's prison all the time...Skilled craftsmen could expect to finish...working for the king...Unskilled workers were ...sent to the silver mines...Others prisoners just disappeared.' Apparently, it's 'clear enough what the magus had in mind' but not to me. Is it really obvious and am I just being blind? Disappear where? Are they killed?

2)Why does Ambiades dislike/envy Sophos? If Sophos is going to be king some day, wouldn't it be better for Ambiades to at least pretend to be friends with him? I assumed it was something to do with his betrayal but it still doesn't seem to make sense...

3)Almost right at the end, but before the swordfighting and Pol's death etc.when Gen is going to leave the Magus and co. and go back to Eddis, if the magus isn't taking Gen back to prison, where will he take him? Similar to Q1, but I thought perhaps the Magus's views might have changed.


And Sophos isn't dead. He's not!

Comments

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Ooh, am I the first to tackle the questions? Cool.
1) Yes, even in modern times we have "the disappeared," don't we? The threat is that Gen will be sent to the mines or killed and disposed of secretly if he doesn't cooperate.
2) It would be much more sensible for Ambiades to be pals with Sophos, but people - real and fictional - often don't behave in their own best interests. Ambiades resents this young man who has lesser abilities than he does (so he thinks) but will come into power because of an accident of birth. When the Attolians offer him more power or at least money, he takes it.
3) I like to think that at that point the magus was planning to be fair, bring Gen back to Sounis and reward him monetarily for his service, maybe even try to keep him around for other thieving tasks that might come up. I doubt Sounis would have been so appreciative of Gen's work himself, but who knows?

Of course Sophos isn't dead.

[rowana.livejournal.com]

Hello! Well done for delurking. :) It sounds like you've been hanging around here prety much since the beginning.

Your views on KoA are really interesting. I remember being a bit irritated with the fact that Costis was narrating at first - I'd already heard a lot about the book, so I was feeling quite dubious. I agree, the re-reads were really what made me come to love it as much as the first two books.

I agree with Philia's answers. I always interpreted that as meaning Gen would be sent to somewhere like the Silver Mines, but I guess you could also see it as a threat to have Gen killed and disposed of. It seemed to fit in with the Magus's character at the beginning, when we were so unsure of his motives and future relationship with Gen.

I think Ambiades's dislike of Sophos is also caused by the fact that both are, essentially, sons of Dukes. Had things gone a little differently for Ambiades' ancestors, he'd probably have been in a pretty good position. I thought that was why he tended to get snappy with the Magus too, he resented the fact that he had to be there. I'm more curious about why Sophos seemed to hero worship Ambiades, since I can't remember a clear reason for that.

Finally, I guess the Magus wasn't too clear on what he'd do with Gen. Perhaps give him a reward or a minor position of some sort, or a post working for the Magus?

And of course Sophos can't be dead. There was a long theory involving bears, floating around about Sophos somewhere here. :)

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

Hey, I didn't fully appreciate Costis until the Evil Eight set him up with Jade. Wow - that's a long time lurking!

1) Because if Gen doesn't cooperate he'll just be killed or just be sent away somewhere where he'll never be found. It happens here too; if you watch a series of 24, you'll know what I mean. As for "disappear where?", I think the fact that you don't know is meant to be scary.

2) I think the Magus said about Ambiades always wanting more power and that he couldn't stop being the grandson of a Duke. I think Ambiades is jealous that although he and Sophos should be of the same rank, Sophos is gonna end up king. The jealousy gets worse because many skills Ambiades has that would traditionally make him a better king, Sophos lacks (or hasn't developed). Plus, learning to be a Magus would make him constantly aware of Sophos's power.

I guess he was too proud to pretend friendship.

3) I think the Magus was thinking of employing Gen himself to steal stuff or maybe just letting him go but paying him to report information to the Magus, more informal spy.

SOPHOS IS NOT DEAD!

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Yay, after being "Lurker of the Year" CrazyViolin has gone LJ!

I thought Ambiades was envious of Sophos from plain old greed, too. He wanted all the nice things Sophos and the Magus had, but his family squandered their money away, instead. Things must have seemed very unfair to Ambiades. There was a comment about how it was a shame Sophos couldn't be the next Magus, since he enjoyed the scholarly life, and Ambiades be the duke instead. Sophos probably felt embarrased by the differences in their circumstances and treated Ambiades with something that may have seemed like earnest pity.

Towards the end of Thief, I think the Magus intended on doing right by Gen by giving him a reward and returning him to Sounis, free from prison. His attitude had completely changed, not only about Gen (who had earned his respect) but about what was important. He could have left Gen in Attolia's prison and talked her into releasing him and Sophos, because of Sophos's position as the heir. But he tried to convince Attolia to keep Gen as her thief, then tried to convince Gen to escape and not worry about them. He had decided that protecting Gen from harm was more important than the stone.

Y'all can huggle Costis all you want, but I still miss Gen's voice. Though I understand why it is what it is.

[estarria.livejournal.com]

I've never been a big fan of Costis either, though I like him more now than I did when I first read the book. He's certainly necessary...in order to show surprising twists and turns in the plot, MWT had to use an Attolian narrator who knew next to nothing about the major characters of the first two books. But I'm afraid I don't find him as interesting as many of the other characters.

[empmai.livejournal.com]

My problem with KoA when I read it the first time was that all the characters seemed to have forgotten the events of T and QoA. - Especially the soldiers, how could they forget that Gen attacked a whole squadron at the end of T, and in QoA had no problem sneakinf around Attolis castle. But when I reread it (slowly) the second time I picked up all the refereences to his one hand and relaesed that they just thought he couldn't do it anymore.

2) about 2. I agree with all the envy said above, but I think it was also that he was friends with Sophos before he turned traitor, and one of the reasons why he was being so mean was that he felt bad and was trying to pick a fight and get Sophos to stop being so nice to him since it just made him feel guiltier. {the episode of Friends where Chandlier moves away and Joey tries to pick a fight was on the other night}

[empmai.livejournal.com]

I liked Costis in the book, but through this livejournal I've come to love him. And after he goes on a road trip with Gen to rescue Sophos I'm sure I'll love him even more :)

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

My liking for Costis grew as I read the book, and intellectually, I understand why we needed a narrator who wasn't in on what was going on, but I still missed Gen and Attolia and wanted to be in their heads and hear their voices, even though that would have made it quite a different book.

And...Sophos dead? What on earth are you talking about?

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I actually LOVE the Costis PoV, though it threw me off for the first page or two. One reason I love it relates to the last post (that discussion about reading quirks). I am not a big fan of series books in general. I think this is mostly laziness on my part -- when I pick up one book, I don't want to feel that I am committing to reading three of them, and I get very irritated when it turns out to be the kind of trilogy where the real plot doesn't even start to happen until the end of book 2. So I love that the Eugenides books are not a traditional series. Every book looks at him from a different angle. It's a little bit like what DWJ does with Chrestomanci. In one book, he's a child, in another, he's an adult, then he's a teenager -- he's a main character, then he's a minor character. Every time you see him he's playing a slightly different role. It makes every book a distinctive reading experience, and every book stands alone.
Also, by the time I got to the scene on the roof with the wineskin, I was so in sympathy with Costis that I could FEEL the urge to reach out and catch Eugenides -- even though somewhere in my mind I knew his god was not going to let him fall. And I love seeing the romance of Irene and Gen only in stolen glimpses -- you will not see me begging for the wedding night scene, for instance (sorry, all). The restraint of it is exactly what makes it so romantic.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like that. Having Sophos be so devoted to him would certainly make him even more irritated.

[jyms.livejournal.com]

welcome lurker =D everyone answered the questions so nicely i shan't say anymore...

[jen94kp.livejournal.com]

I agree with pretty much everyone else although..
1. I thought Gen was being threatened with death.
3. I guess I'm an optimist buy I thought the Magus would make up a story for the King of Sounis and just let Gen go.

I enjoyed reading KOA from Costis' point of view. I enjoyed seeing his opinion change about Gen. I truly hope we see him again. He deserves to be a good friend of Gen's. I guess we'll see.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

At the risk of being told to get a life, here's another way to look at the change of viewpoints. I've always thought that one reason the stories/legends were there in the books was to show us that Gen himself, chosen by the gods, is becoming a legend himself. He's gone from being a private, secretive person to being king -- with the indication that he will become even more. So with every book he's moving farther into legend, and he belongs more and more to other people than just himself. With every book, our view of him is more distant than the last, as the camera pulls away, so to speak, and we see his importance in the big picture.
The genius of it is that, having started in his point of view, we know him so well that we can guess at his thoughts even when we see him from a distance.

[jen94kp.livejournal.com]

3. ....but I thought...

[crazyviolin.livejournal.com]

Lol, thanks for some great answers. I really like empmai's idea about Ambiades feeling guilty...

I can't get my head around the magus wanting to kill Gen though. Can't we pretend he was planning on sending him on a nice holiday in the sun somewhere far away?

And philia fan? That legend idea is awesome!

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I don't think the magus WANTED to kill Gen. He was THREATENING to kill him, which is a bit different. What he really wants is Gen's total cooperation and obedience. I think he has a ruthless streak and could have followed through on his threat, but that's moot, since Gen is only too happy to take the job.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

*Finds earplugs and dons safety glasses*
*Waits for explosion from Jade*

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting observation! Good point.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree about the wedding night scene.

Costis is one of those who grows on you. I didn't like Irene at first but I admire her soooo much and think she's wonderful now.

Ooh, wineskin scene. Yeah, especially because it was after he had that argument with Aris and he must have felt "why the hell is this my business?/why should i do this if no one believes me?". Bless.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

Woohoo! Have you heard the whole bears thing? I could say lots about the bears but... You're reading this right now, aren't you Willow?

****
The Sophos/Eddis/the Magus love traingle (backlog from ages ago):

emerald: "tell Sophos i DON'T love him" and the message gets shouted round the palace and contorts like chinese whispers until it is "Eddis loves Sophos"

emerald: and then Sophos jumps up

jade_sabre: who says "Tell Sophos I don't love him?" Eddis?

emerald: the magus

emerald: he's running around crazily trying to find a lovesick Sophos who's feeling sorry for himself and avoiding people (because he thinks Eddis loves the Magus)

jade_sabre: aw...but how do they get--I guess the point is there's no logical way for them to get "Eddis loves Sophos" which of course means they took the chaotic route to reach that conclusion, and that's why it's in the story

jade_sabre: gotcha

emerald: ah ha. im rather proud of that idea!

jade_sabre: so Sophos jumps up and runs to Eddis who...loves him? doesn't love him? doesn't realize her feelings until he lays a huge kiss on her, and when the kiss breaks she can ask "How'd you learn to kiss like that?

jade_sabre: I thought you've been living with bears."

jade_sabre: and Sophos can go "..."

emerald: hahahahahahahahaha. He practised on bears?

emerald: ew

jade_sabre: I didn't say that. We don't even have to finish that conversation. Someone can jump in with a pressing problem, and the reader will be left to wonder if it was the bears or not.

emerald: Sophos says "Will you marry me?" Eddis replies "Put it on my things to do list between the war and getting a dress fitted"

jade_sabre: LOL

jade_sabre: which war?

****

You could ask Jade if she's willing to share Costis. I'd do it from a distance.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

And I disagree about the wedding night scene, and here's why. There are many scenes that aren't in the books--of course a book can't include everything that happens. The parts in these stories that are left out are very tantilizing and explain the characters' motivations and actions. I try to think through these "missing pieces" so I can understand what's going on. I'm usually able to do that pretty well. The wedding night scene, though, has me stumped. I take the bits we have (inkpot, tears, reducing the guard, not entering the queen's room through the door, Gen refusing to be king) and try to imagine it and I just can't put them all together.

That makes me feel like I've missed something, and I really, really want to know. Ok, I'll admit it. Part of the reason I really, really want to know is knowing that it's in the slushpile. Just sitting there. Waiting. To be read.

Wedding Night Scene

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

I'm with Checkers on this one, 100% (if not more).

Maybe, just maybe, she'll include it as a short story in the new Firebird Anthology and sells a million extra copies for sdn. And since it would be a matter of taking it out of the slush pile and dusting it off a bit, it shouldn't distract to much from the next installment of Gen and Costis' Big Adventure.

We can hope.

:)

Re: Wedding Night Scene

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm not saying I wouldn't love to read it if it were available. I just mean that not including it in the book was a decision I really respect. But then, I don't really have trouble putting the pieces together in my imagination.