Your Royal Highness

[crazyviolin.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking, which is quite unusual for me, is Gen a prince? As in, a prince of Eddis cos we all know he's king of Attolia.

He could be a prince though, couldn't he?, because his grandfather was king of Eddis (that's mentioned somewhere in KoA)and Gen's father must have been that king's son since Gen's mother's parents were part of the Thief line. We know Gen's father was Eddis's father's brother (don't know how or where but we do)so does that make Gen's father a prince? If he is, then Gen would be too. Does anybody a) make sense of that and b) agree with me?

Comments

[kilerkki.livejournal.com]

Usually, only the children of the reigning monarch are known as princes/princesses. Take Shakespeare's Henry V, for example. In the previous plays (Henry IV parts I and II), both Harry and his brothers are known as princes. In Henry V, Harry has been crowned king, and his brothers are Dukes--Bedford and Gloucester, if I remember correctly. Their children would inherit their titles, or however the king is pleased to distribute them; but they aren't princes.

It makes sense, really. If you keep having the cousins of the monarchs be princess and princesses, you've got an awful lot of royalty running around claiming the throne!

[crazyviolin.livejournal.com]

But there are a load of randoms that seem to be somehow distantly related to the Queen of England. Or somehow great grand-daughters or something, I don't really care, but they're mentioned in newspapers sometimes. And they all seem to be Prince/Princess something or other.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Well, I think the way it works:

King = Queen
Prince 1
Prince 2
Princess 3

Prince 1 is going to become King someday, so he's good.
Prince 2 is not, so he gets some titles like Duke of such and such, Earl of such and such, etc.
Princess 3 also gets some fancy titles, like Duchess of such and such, Lady of such and such.

King dies, so Prince 1 becomes King2

Now you have King2, and then Prince 2 starts going by Duke of such and such, and Princess 3 starts going by Duchess of such and such.

Meanwhile, King2 has kids, who are known as Prince, Princess, etc.

after all, Eddis's sister is referred to as a duchess--but wouldn't she be a princess?

technically, I guess, Gen is a "prince" of Eddis, but I don't think the title is one that matters. His father is probably a duke now, and Gen's oldest brother is the one who will inherit that, so Gen would probably just become landed gentry, if he didn't become a thief. Or an officer in the army, which usually pays well enough to let you act like landed gentry. They make allowances for younger siblings in the system, so that they too can live the life they are accustomed to (more or less).

wow, I hope that makes sense.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Remember in KoA when Aulus tells Gen's attendants, "There is a guardroom, Your Highness, I am sure your meant to say," and Costis thinks about whether Aulus could be a prince of Eddis or not? Then, "Costis didn't think Eddis had any brothers, but this might be a close cousin of Eddis's and a prince of the house."

No idea what that adds to the discussion. Just thought I'd mention it.

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

That's extremely relevant, because obviously they're not Eddis's children. Therefore, Eddis must go by a different system, where others besides the children of the reigning monarch are called princes. So Gen could very well be a prince-- after all if Aulus is a close cousin, so is Gen.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

Aulus and Boagus are mentioned as princes, so Gen could have been before made a Thief.

KoA: Remember when Eddis is talking to the Magus. She said about limits on the power of the Thieves of Eddis and that they were prevented from owning land. This implies Gen can't be called a prince as well. (I've gotta go in a minute which is why this is so rushed. I'll look up quotes later.)

[rowana.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that the title of Thief must somehow over-rule the title of Prince. Since Gen was endlessly associated with being 'The Thief', rather than 'a prince', though going by the example of Aulus and Boagus, he may well have been otherwise.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

in Germany, the HRE anyway, the nobles were more often than not "princes" than "dukes" or whatever.

then again, that wasn't a unified system of government, unlike Eddis.

we also don't know how far off feudalism Eddis's current system is. Or Attolia's, for that matter. It strikes me that Attolia, with her barons and their control, is closer to true feudalism than Eddis; though you would think that Eddis, being so withdrawn from her neighbors (Gen and his outdated books, for example), would still be clinging to an "old system," while Attolia would have modernized itself. Rather, Attolia is modernizing itself under the queen, but clearly this is a new way of doing things.

woot, now I'm just babbling about government. Le sigh. *should just do history and be done with it*

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Of course, Aulus could have been giving the Attolians a load of (excuse me) bull.

[ceecee44.livejournal.com]

In the case of Aulus being a prince it could mean that if something was to happen to Eddis that he would become King. The point of having a prince is to have someone to inherit the throne. Since Eddis has no children, then her closest relative would inherit the throne and also be called prince. That's why Sophos is a prince, but his father a duke.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I think you can be a duke and a prince at the same time. But I agree with Rowana, Gen's a prince but his choice to be the Thief overrides that title-wise.

[dannybailey.livejournal.com]

On a slightly related note, I think there might be a discrepancy with the family ties in the Eddisian court. Eugenides says in Queen, when explaining to the magus, "Agape is the daughter of the queen's mother's sister, and I am related to the queen through my father who is her father's brother...Agape;s much more closely related to the queen than me."

It doesn't sound to me as though Agape is more closely related. Gen and the Queen are first cousins, I gather. Meaning that Gen's father was a prince of the royal house, or whatever. Gen's grandfather was king at one point. Isn't that right? So really, it sounds as if Gen is much more closely related to the Queen than Agape. Or am I missing something?

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

It sounds to me as if they are equally closely related. Queen's mother's sister, versus Queen's father's brother. Both Gen and Agape would be first cousins to the queen. Maybe Agape was related to the queen through both sides, whereas Gen's mother's side might not be related to the queen at all.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

IS Sophos a prince? He is the son of a duke and the king's heir, and Ambiades and Gen called him, "Your highness" although both sarcastically. Ok, I suppose he is a prince.

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

But if Aulus were heir to the throne, wouldn't he be His Royal Highness?

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

What you're missing is the clue from the grammar: "more closely related than me," not "more closely related than I." In other words, Agape is more closely related to the Queen than she is to Eugenides.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I left out "to the Queen," sorry!

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

That's what I read too. Especially as Eddis was trying to set Gen up with Agape at that point.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Now, wait. If he meant to say that Agape is more closely related to the Queen than she is to Eugenides, wouldn't he have said, "Agape's much more closely related to the queen than TO me"? I took his phrase to mean that Agape is more closely related to the queen than Eugenides is, although, as you say, it was not grammatically correct.

I don't have a copy of the book handy.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

I love the icon! RANDOM! WOOHOO!

[rowana.livejournal.com]

I'm suddenly reminded of the Disney Adventures story, where there were rumours about Gen's father wanting the throne (?). It'd make sense for people to think that if he were the late king's cousin, which would actually put Gen more closely in line for the throne than I'd realised, behind Eddis, his father and all his elder brothers and sisters.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

My copy does have "to" there, as it happens! I have the edition with the hand on the cover. It might have been left out in another version. Even so, with "me" there, it really has to mean "than Agape is related to me" rather than "Than I am related to the Queen." And, as Emerald pointed out, the latter doesn't make sense in context.
A lot of kids' (and adults') books have grammatical mistakes in them these days -- it seems as if editors are letting them get by without noticing. BUT in my experience MWT does not make this kind of mistake.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

No, he's the late king's brother, Eddis's uncle.
It looks as if that "family tree" extra thingy could be a darn good idea....

[rowana.livejournal.com]

Sorry - I meant brother, making Gen Eddis's first cousin. Thanks Philia. :)

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Whew, I'm glad to hear the "TO" is in there.

So, both Gen and Agape are the queen's first cousins? Agape on the queen's mother's side, and Gen on the queen't father's side? What relation would that make Gen and Agape, if any? My first cousin on my mom's side is not related by blood at all to my first cousin on my dad's side, and I don't even think they are considered cousins to one another, are they?

But everyone is related in Eddis, right? *coughinbreedingcough* Good thing they have those priests to decide who can marry whom.

[crazyviolin.livejournal.com]

So he's both then? A prince and the Thief. And a king, but we can ignore that part. Because after all, Richard III must have been a prince when he was a duke, so at least in English history you can have two titles.

If somebody asked me what would you call a grandson of a king, I'd say a prince.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

That could have been a joke, about everyone being related. You can't trust everything Gen says! Or maybe Gen and Agape are distant cousins through some relationship we know nothing about (and don't really need to).

[empmai.livejournal.com]

Royalty can have as many titles as they want.

They may be the Duke of one area and the Viscount of another ( through inheritance, marriage etc)

You can be the King of one country and the prince heir to another. See (Queen Elizabeth I? and King James I of England who was also King James IV of Scotland).

[empmai.livejournal.com]

All children and grandchildren of Kings are named Princesses - but they are usually Duke/Duchess as well and to show that they aren't converting backstabbing for the thrown they usually go by Dukes/Duchess, but not all Duke Duchess are Prince/Princesses.

Children of Prince/Princesses are not always prince/princess

[empmai.livejournal.com]

Prince/ess, Dukes and Duchess are "Your Highness" but not "your ROYAL Highness"

[empmai.livejournal.com]

oops, tey can also be Princes is they are boys. Boys don't have to be Princesses.