Deceit

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

In The Thief, when Gen ends up in Attolia's prison and conversing with the queen, he says that he thinks she's a fiend from the underworld, etc.

That seems to contradict what is really the case, that he loves her. So we're left thinking, after reading QoA, either that he didn't yet love her (even though he says he has since he saw her dancing alone in the garden, which was before The Thief) or that MWT changed her mind between Thief and QoA.

I got to the end of the book and re-read the part where he says Eddis told him to write it down. I had completely forgotten that was the case. So what we have is pretty much a description of Gen concealing things and lying to the Magus et al., as filtered through a book that Gen is writing that he knows Eddis at least and probably others will read. So even though in most books one could assume that by the end the author is telling the truth and Revealing All - knowing Gen, and in these circumstances, I doubt it. He's just peeled back one more layer for Eddis' benefit, but there are all kinds of them still firmly concealed.

By the way, something that gave me a chill - when Gen is talking to the Magus right after he wakes up in Eddis, and is asking what's going on, and the Magus isn't telling him, Gen says, "Tell me, or I'll get up and strangle you with one hand." Shudder. Shades of the scene in KoA that happens because he *can't* strangle someone with one hand.

Comments

[twtd]

You know, there was something about the first scene where Gen and Attoila interacted that made me think that he was completely in love with her. I think that whatever it was that gave me that indication was done intentionally, and their relationship wasn't a piece of revisionism by MWT. I don't know what that thing was, but I was so happy to be proven correct in QoA and KoA. Also, I don't think that you can ever take anything that Gen says as completely truthful. There's always at least one other layer/motivation underneath it.

As for assuming that an author is going to reveal all at the end of a book, I think you pretty much have to throw that assumption out with anything written in the modern/post-modern era. I think that part of what makes Turner such a great author is that, unlike many (though not all) contemporary YA fiction writers, she doesn't tie up all of the loose ends, use reliable narrators or distinguish between truth and perception. She writing at the same level that contemporary writers of 'literature' are writing at. I think she's done an incredible disservice, at least academically, by the prevaling bias againt both the YA and fantasy genres (i.e. how many YA authors have won major awards besides the Newbery? How many strictly fantasy books are in the canon, not counting The Lord of the Rings?)

The parallels between the strangling scenes actually makes me think that Gens first threat is a completely empty one. If it's true that you can't strangle someone with one hand, and Gen obviously knows this, then he's basically saying, "Tell me, or... nothing. I can't/won't actually do anything." Of course, Gen could always be lying about the fact that you can't strangle someone with one hand. I know nothing about anatomy. Or I could be giving MWT too much credit for knowing that little fact when she wrote the first line.

And I'm going to stop rambling now and go read what I'm supposed to be reading instead of lj.

[netslefj.livejournal.com]

Didn't Gen tell Attolia, as they were climbing the cliff-face after he had abducted her, that he himself didn't realize that he loved her until after he had stolen Hamiathes' gift?

And while he did threaten to kill the Magus, I don't think he explained precisely how he planned to do it. Because the Magus didn't need much urging - he loves to explain how events are unfolding and why.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

he loves to explain how events are unfolding and why

if that doesn't just sum up the magus in a nutshell!

I think it was just a friendly threat of Gen's, anyway. This wasn't the "god incarnate" we see in KoA when Gen is confronting Sejanus.

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

I never thought of it that way - that Eugenides was writing it, so he might not have told the whole story. It's something interesting to consider. :)

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

I didn't read Thief till after I read KoA, so I can't say what my impression would have been if I had read the first scene between Gen and Attolia without knowing what came after. It's interesting that you suspected that they were in love.

When I consider what sorts of books keep winning "major awards," I think it's no insult not to be one of the winners. Have you read "A Reader's Manifesto," by BF Myers? Here's the original article: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200107/myers ; he expanded it to a short book later. I am not a big fan of the modern/post-modern era.

I know the first threat was an empty one - a friendly non-threat, as for example when I tell my loved ones that if they do not stop doing something I will rip out their livers by way of their left ears. What gave me the chill was the realization that what was now a joke became such an agonizing thing for Gen later.

[empmai.livejournal.com]

"You know, there was something about the first scene where Gen and Attoila interacted that made me think that he was completely in love with her"

Me too. It was what made me keep checking back on amazon for years after the thief came out, because I thought there had to be a sequel were they get together.

Gen was throwing words at Attolia like a kid on the playground throws rocks at the girl he lusts. He just didn't know it was love until after Hamiathes gift - since as Att. said he was such a little boy before that.

In terms of her being a fiend from hell that doesn't really rule out him not crushing on her. How many sexy vampies/devils/witches are going be suaving about tomorrow. And how many boys video games only have girl characters that she-devils whose tailors seem to have run out of material. (acutally I can only think of Tony Hawks skateboarding). How many people in Sounis claim a criminal: thief, murderer, and tempertraturm thrower as their book-boyfriend vs those that claim almost-good boy Dite as theirs. (Costis is a different story - because you know Gen is going to turn him bad on their roadtrip)

[twtd]

Oh, I'm not saying that every book that wins an award is good, merely using the giving of such awards as an indiction of respect and attention. There's certainly more involved in choosing the winners than pure merit. I'll check out that article though. I don't excatly read a lot of modern/post-modern lit either ( I don't have the time read much of anything that isn't history anymore), but MWT seems like she would be a very well informed author, influenced by many different sources, many of which I'm not aware of or well versed in. I'm sure that unreliable narrators predate the modern era, but I'm a historian, not a literary scholar, and I know that they appear in modern fiction.

As for that scene, I don't know that Attolia was in love with Gen, or even particularly aware of him on that level. Gen, however just gave off complete infatuation vibes.

As for the empty threat, it's been about a year since I've read Thief so I couldn't remember the exact context.

[estarria.livejournal.com]

*flips through book* He says, "When I stole Hamiathes' Gift, I loved you then. I didn't understand it. I thought you must be a fiend from hell, but I already loved you." So...I'm not sure exactly when he started loving her. But this does indicate that there was a point in time when he thought she was a fiend, but also loved her.

I agree with Peggy, that is a great description of the Magus.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

In QoA, before Gen goes to steal the Queen, he tells Eddis, "She may be a fiend from hell to make me feel this way, but even if I have to hate myself for the rest of my life, this is what I want." I think he at least half-believed, when he was younger, that she was some sort of evil fiend exactly BECAUSE he loved her -- as in, "but she's the monster who tortures and kills people, why does my heart flip over in my chest every time I look at her, unless she's cast some sort of spell on me?" I don't know if MWT changed her mind between books or not, but I think in retrospect the Thief scene works in light of what we learn in QoA.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I always thought it was a sort of denial thing for Gen--that he was feeling something for her, but he didn't like what he was feeling, so he told himself and everyone else that he hated her, that he thought she was a fiend. This would be a case of Gen lying to himself as well as everyone else. Gen was being an unreliable narrator, but he wasn't quite doing it on purpose this time.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Gen was throwing words at Attolia like a kid on the playground throws rocks at the girl he lusts.

:D

because you know Gen is going to turn him bad on their roadtrip

Sweet, darling Costis? Can't wait for that.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

Costis is a different story - because you know Gen is going to turn him bad on their roadtrip

LOL!!

*waits even more impatiently for the next book*

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

LOL

It must be all those packages he's been forced to deliver...

[savvywriter.livejournal.com]

Haha! This post reminds me of the second time I read The Thief to my lil brother. At the Gen/Attolia part he summed up the conversation like this:
My bro speaking as Gen: You know...you're really pretty, and I have a big crush on you...but you're EVIL.
I laughed so hard after he said that.

The "choke you with one hand" thing has struck me before also.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Poor guy. :D

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

OKAY OKAY OKAY.

What it is is that he says "When I stole Hamiathes's Gift, I loved you then. I didn't understand it," he said, cocking his head, "I thought you must be a fiend from hell, but I already loved you." and he says the "She may be a fiend from hell to make me feel this way" thing.

AND THEN AND THEN AND THEN there's the line about how when the magus offered to send him new books he accepted and read carefully to see if she was the monster in disguise as everyone said, or merely a woman who ruled without the support of his barons. Um um um...*searches, flailing*

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

WHERE IS THIS QUOTE.

In the end, he took his grandfather's advice and went to see for himself WHERE IS THIS QUOTE.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

OKAY I FOUND IT.

So the first one that was mentioned is on page 277 of the Gen-the-rapist edition (end of ch. 15). And the "make me feel this way" one is on page 220 (end of ch. 11). And then the quote I'm thinking of is

"He'd remembered that moment when he'd seen her flush at being called cruel. Afterward, when the magus offered to send him information more current than that in his own library, Eugenides had accepted gladly and read carefully, trying to see whether Attolia could be the monster in human guise she was accused of being, or only a woman who ruled without the support of her barons. In the end he had taken advice his grandfather had given him years before and gone to see for himself." (p. 278)

OKAY ANYWAY I basically agree with what everyone else said: He was fascinated by her (and his grandfather knew), but he also knew about all the evil things she'd done, and plus he was still a kid in many ways and didn't understand how she made him feel, and so figured he was fascinated with her but it was because she was "evil." But he also probably knew in some part of him that he was lying to himself, and so he read to see if she really was evil, especially as he came more and more to realize (as he continued to watch her) that his feelings for her weren't morbid fascination. The line to Eddis, I think, is one of jest, though the mood of the moment isn't very funny.

...um I love these books.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

good job, Jade! Sorry to make you go and drag out your books when I'm sure you would rather have been studying Russian, or writing a philosophy paper.

Was the reference material your very own personalized copy of QoA, by any chance?

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

oh. I didn't read very carefully. The Gen-the-rapist version, not the new one.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

when I'm sure you would rather have been studying Russian, or writing a philosophy paper.

Er, yes, of course, that's exactly how I was feeling.

and yes, it was the Gen-the-rapist version. Mostly because I've broken the spine (I think that's what it's called?) on that one and so it's perfectly okay for me to have something sitting on it to hold it open while I type up quotes from it. I'm trying to keep the other one purty still. (pictures coming soon! o_O)

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

You know, strangers wandering in here would read "the Gen-the-rapist edition" and think things like, "Whhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?"

I have never actually seen that cover - just not-terribly-clear online pictures.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

heehee.

I don't like it, 'cause Gen looks a lot older than Attolia. I don't know if those are supposed to be scars or what on his face.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Yes, he didn't realize he loved her until after he had stolen Hamiathes' gift. But I'm left with time line problems. Obviously it took a while for him to write The Thief. QoA is, what, a year or so after the end of Thief? I think by QoA he's already pretty much figured out that whether she's a fiend from hell or not he loves her (hence the gift of the earrings). So how long after he stole Hamiathes' gift *did* he realize he loved her? Before he finished writing The Thief? If so, the deception is there, because there's no hint that he - here comes a convoluted thought and sentence - was feeling anything that he didn't know what it was and that turned out to be love.

glurrrrrg! I can't figure out how to say this clearly!

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

Leslie, I think you are putting too much thought into this. It's not an historical treatise. You'll make her too nervous to ever finish the next book.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Oh, goodness, I hope not. I'm having loads of fun trying to analyze to the exact degree how deceptive Gen was being, and whether it's only us (and Eddis) he's deceiving, or whether he's also deceiving himself. And trying ot figure out when exactly he realized he loved Attolia, and how he figured it out (because that allows me to do mental fanfic which is also very fun).

And what do you mean, it's not an historical treatise? Of course it is. Next you'll be trying to tell me that Gen and Attolia and Costis and all aren't real people!

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Just because Gen gave her the earrings doesn't mean he'd admitted to himself at that point that he loved her. Maybe neither of them could recognize it until after his hand was gone and they each had to face what had happened and what they felt.

Of course they are real people about whom you should jot down that fanfic just in case you feel like posting it in queensfic.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

*shakes head*
*gives up the argument*

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I guess what I've been saying is that I disagree. I think if you go back and read that scene in Thief after knowing what follows in QoA, you find that everything Gen tells us about the Queen has a double meaning. He's both in love with her and terrified of her. It works for me, anyway.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

This intrigues me, because I've never gotten that impression from reading Thief. What, specifically, makes you think that, philia? Or, more accurately, what is your interpretation of the conversation Gen and Attolia have in Thief after her soldiers capture him?

[netslefj.livejournal.com]

Are you saying that he doesn't reveal any confusion about his feelings toward Attolia in The Thief?

I think the glimmer of something is present in that expression Attolia couldn't read - which may have been unadulterated admiration for her beauty and her, shall we say, independence - after the threesome was imprisoned in Attolia after the skirmish with the Queen's guard. When he said that his own promised one was kinder.

And I've thought that the ten-day escape from Eddis' court may have been when he forced himself to think it through.

Doesn't it crack you up some days to realize how real they feel to us? do people in our own lives seem as real most days?

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Well, there is possibly my favorite line: "Discretion prevented me from saying that I thought she was a fiend from the underworld and that mountain lions couldn't force me to enter her service." (I could have posted that under the "Turns of phrase" post). This line was the major reason I originally couldn't accept that Gen loved Attolia in QoA. It's so delicious a put-down. BUT in retrospect, he thought she was a fiend from the underworld WHO HAD ENCHANTED HIM SOMEHOW and he didn't want to enter her service because what could be more horrifying than serving the woman you loved against your better reason, and watching her commit atrocities every single day? Makes much more sense than Gen just not wanting to spy for Attolia. After all, if she trusted him to do that, surely he could easily escape.
There is of course his description of her as "more beautiful than any woman I have ever seen."
Then there's "I smiled back, pleased with myself in a bitter way." Bitter because he was still in her power -- or bitter because the only pleasure in hurting the woman he loves is a bitter one?
As she leaves: "The velvet was soft, but the embroidery scratched." Gen's feelings about Attolia all over -- drawn to her beauty and vulnerability, put off by her harshness.
Later, when the magus asks him why he won't enter her service, he says, "Can we stop discussing this just now?" Yes, they're trying to be quiet, but he also wants to change the subject because the whole situation makes him deeply uncomfortable due to complicated feelings.
Whew! This is long. I agree that, if you just read Thief, you wouldn't necessarily guess that he loved Attolia. But once you know he loved Attolia, and you go back and reread Thief, I think the things he says about her still make sense. It's always a sort of horrified love, a love he wishes he didn't feel, until he comes to terms with it in QoA.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Ha, I was hoping you would go through their conversation and give examples but didn't want to demand: TELL ME. EXACTLY with EXAMPLES from the book. :)

I can see it, now that you explain your thought process, but none of that occurred to me any of the many times I've read the book. I found Gen's descriptions of Attolia a bit chilling; her perfect teeth, her quiet, lovely voice alongside the horrors she's done. She came off as creepy. I can see that he would find her creepy if he felt a strong attraction to her at the same time as believing her a fiend.