queensthief | De-lurking

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De-lurking

Hi! *waves* I've been lurking around for a few weeks now and think it's time to say hi! Well ok, to be honest I'm coming out of lurkerdom because I have a nagging question...

A bit about me: I live in New Zealand and am about to sit my final high school exams, ~~which, of course, is a great opportunity for online procrastination~~. I found this comm maybe a month ago and was absolutely shocked to find out that my favourite duology (The Thief and QoA) was really a trilogy! I pleaded and begged and someone gave me a copy of KoA for my birthday, thus fulfilling all my wildest dreams :) Since then I think I've become obsessed, and started collaring innocent classmates in corridors and asking if they've read these fantastic books. I persuaded my Mum to read them and she had a question that I couldn't answer, so I thought hey, why not ask the clued-up people over on Sounis?

So... question: Going right back to the Thief, Gen takes Hamiathes' Gift for Eddis because handing down the stone peacefully secures the line of succession, right? And when the stone is taken by force, the stone doesn't work any more. This is also why the magus wants it. BUT after Gen steals it, he gives it to the Magus, and then later STEALS IT BACK from the Magus without his permission. Doesn't this count as breaking the peaceful handing-down chain of events? Or is it fulfilled again because when Gen does get to Eddis, (the country) he gives the stone freely to Eddis (the person)?

To be honest, I'm stumped. So I'm really hoping someone here can help me out. *looks around hopefully* I'm not sure about LJ ettiquite either (though I've had an account for over a year!) - is it ok to post here straight off or should I have introduced myself beforehand?
Wow, this is way longer than I meant it to be. So, hoping someone can help! XD

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Welcome! Don't worry about LJ etiquette, an introduction is fine, or an introduction in a post about something else like you did, (or no introduction at all, for that matter). :)

Good question! I'd go with your explanation - Gen gives the stone to Eddis, so it works for her. Although - this is probably just me not having read the books for far too long - but didn't the stone work for Gen despite his having stolen it? I thought it was what kept him alive and then he collapsed when he handed it over....

*looks around for someone who's re-read the books more recently*

(Welcome again! Wander along to The Conspiracy Room sometime!)

Hi everyone! Wow, I'm also shocked at how many people have commented just since I got back from school.

Interesting point about Gen collapsing when he handed over the stone, I hadn't thought of that before. I assumed though (after seeing someone mention it here on Sounis!) that the stone was what was keeping him alive when he was stabbed under the cliff. I was also thinking about this in History today and realised that, to begin with, Gen doesn't actually *steal* the stone from the temple, he is allowed to take it, in fact, Eugenides the god actually urges him to (Um, I think... where's my book?)

None of that answers my question but it's interesting to think about how many times that stone changed ownership. Someone else (pigrescuer) said lower down the comments that because the stone was only passing between members of the group Gen was travelling with, it didn't count as stealing because they were all, in a sense, the thieves of the stone?
Er, yeah. I agree. That makes sense.

Oh and yes! darkest_vision I did see that there's another book coming! Perhaps I should have said "was *currently* a trilogy' (After I found out about KoA, I tried not to read much here in case I found spoilers (in case, hoho!) so it took me a while to find out about Megan and her knitting thing but I'm very excited about the new book now!)

SNAP!

I'm from New Zealand too, AND studying for my NCEA level 3's. And, uh, maybe procrastinating a little more than I should be *guilty* Why does everything become so much more interesting when you know you shouldn't do it? DD:

Yeah, this trilogy wowed me too. I was wandering around in a Gen-filled haze after my first time reading. Did you know there's a fourth book coming ~~as soon as Megan stops knitting and starts writing~~ XD So it's a quartet, actually :D

Uh.. I'm with rowana, it's been a while since I've read Thief, but that's how I remember it too. Of course, I also remember gods being involved when his life was saved, so in that instance it could have been Gen's affinity with the gods that led to the stone working..

Grrr, my head's too full with ~~useless crap~~ Chemistry. And I don't have a copy on hand..

Welcome anyway ^^

It's been a while since I read the books but I will still give you my opinion. :)

I think that a) the gods were (and still are) keeping an eye on Gen's fate and the fate of the three countries, so obviously they made sure it worked for him. And b) the Magus almost took it from him by force - demanding to have it - so maybe it doesn't quite count? Although he did give it to him freely. Also c) The whole group would be counted as having stolen it (remember that if Gen had failed, they all would have disappeared) so maybe stealing it within the group didn't count?

Welcome to Sounis! :)

I like the second idea, because whilst traveling in the group Gen was always sort of under duress (sorry i'm explaining this badly) to do what the Magus wanted. It just happened by then that Gen had gotten so used to the threats the Magus didn't actually need to threaten Gen, he knew the consequences of disobeying the Magus. And at that time he was in no condition to escape the Magus (after the stealing the gift) so he would of haved to handed the gift over as it would of been taken by force anyway....So Gen just chose the less painful option that would keep him in better standing with the Magus

That makes sense..i think. I dunno, what do you guys think?

And welcome to Sounis by the way :)

Since then I think I've become obsessed
ha! welcome to sounis! You will fit in beautifully with all of us other obsessed fans.

The key with the Gift is that it not be taken for oneself. Gen could steal it (and have the immortality, and visits from Moira) because he was never stealing it with the idea of becoming King of Eddis himself. He was stealing it (as a very well behaved tool) for the Magus to give to Sounis, and he stole it (as the queen's thief) to give to Eddis. Never for himself.

hey, bring your mom into the comm, too!

:-)

Yeah, I'd noticed this... problem?... before, and this is how I explained it to myself.

*snorts* Well-behaved! *chuckles* Oh Gen, I love you forever... *smirks*

I think Peggy's put it well, but I'd add that in a sense, the whole process of giving the stone to the magus and taking it back and hiding it was still part of the stealing. Also, the stone is supposed to be stolen by the Queen's Thief. The magus doesn't really believe in that whole thing, he just intends to pass himself off in that role, but Gen is the real deal, so I think the gods can tell the difference.

Replying to myself here...there's that bit in the dream where Moira asks him "who brings you here?" and he answers "I bring myself." I wonder, if he'd said, "the magus of Sounis", whether he would have actually been passing the Queen's Thief title to the magus. She asks this more than once.

I think Peggy and Philia have got it. Also I like Ro's idea...which I'd never thought of. >_>

Well, as long as we're de-lurking, I'll wave "Hi" too. And I'll add a question of my own.

I was listening to my iPod yesterday, and that Billy Joel song "She's Always A Woman" (yes, I'm old old old, deal with it) popped up on the shuffle. And I was in utter shock.

So I called over my daughter, also a huge MWT fan-geek and said "Listen to this, tell me what you think." And she listened, and totally un-prompted, said, "Wow. I didn't know anybody was writing filk for Queen of Attolia."

So, my question. What other songs make you think they could have been written to accompany scenes or characters in this series?

Welcome!

Wow, coincidence. Some of us were just saying it had been a long time since there was a post on music that fits the Attolia books. Would you mind doing a new post on the main page asking your question, so more people will see it? Or I can do it if you prefer.

:-)

a new sounis mix would make Mariah, et al, very happy

Yeah, I have a few, too. I can do it, I've got time. *goes to make post*

nice catch!
*seconds checkers' request that you make a stand alone post*

I wouldn't mind making a stand alone post, but the filters on my computer (don't ask) won't let me.

I would very much be interested in hearing what music others have suggested. I probably won't have even heard of most of the songs (remember, OLD) but my daughter might have.

I probably won't have even heard of most of the songs (remember, OLD) but my daughter might have.

don't bet on it! I have two teens, one in college, both of whom have ~~participated in reprobate activities~~ chimed in on sounis before.

Start with this post, and follow some of the links. Lots of good music to choose from, much of which I was unfamiliar with before seeing the playlists.

http://community.livejournal.com/sounis/132477.html

I hadn't really thought about that before, because I immediately assumed since stealing it is part of the deal, it would never count as taking it by force.
And your question make me think. If that's so, then it can be stolen back, stolen again, stolen anytime a thief could manage it (of course we readers know it can pretty much only be stolen with the approval of the gods, but that has to be a tempting target for anyone in the country trying to gain power).
What if after he gave it to Eddis, someone stole it from her? Would that then legally (well traditionally) make whoever the thief gave it to the ruler? If so, the stone is not a set confirmation of rule, which then puts interesting light on the position of Queen's/King's thief. In that case, the Thief would continue to be the main defender of the ruler's right to power. The Royal thief would have to be the best, or someone else could steal the stone, crown their own ruler, and become the new Royal thief. The Royal Thief would be the guarantee that the ruler would stay on the throne because they could always steal it back if a lesser thief took it.
Of course it wouldn't work quite like this, because of the whole, needing the Gods' approval part, but it's an interesting consideration of what the position might have meant in the past. I mean, it seems unlikely the gods have been that consistently involved in the nation's affairs and still be as doubted as they are at the beginning of the books. So likely it worked like that at some point. On the other hand, maybe the gap in belief is only indicative of the long time the stone has been hidden. And of course this only matters if the stone can be stolen more than once and at any point from the person it's been given to.
It's just that the force argument doesn't quite ring true to me. Gen did give it to him, I'd say of his own choice, because it suited his plans. Gen spent a majority of the trip doing exactly what he wanted; the Magus did have power over him, but a lot less than he thought he had. And I really don't want to go with the theory that the gods made it okay. True, these gods have shown themselves perfectly willing 'cheat' with human affairs, but I don't like it. How active are the gods in human affairs anyway? Has anyone tracked that? Do they have any rules, or is it whatever they feel like? How much free will is there in this fictional universe?

From what Thief says, it seems like the stone *could* be stolen often and given to a new ruler. The only qualifiers are 1. Possession gives you the right to rule. 2. Possession frees you from death. 3. The power is lost unless the stone is given to someone. 4. Tradition is that someone steals the stone and gives it to his chosen candidate.

Do the gods have to approve the choice? If the person is in the gods' temple, sure, but maybe not if the person steals it from the current ruler to give it to someone else.

Gen gave the stone to the Magus after the gods gave it to him (or did he steal it?) He stole it back from the Magus and it kept him alive until he gave it to Eddis. Gen didn't have to give it to the Magus, but probably knew if he didn't there would be some questions as to how he survived (everyone else who failed died) and they might decide to search him.

As to the free will question, I don't know. Not many people have seen the gods, apparently, or have had them appear in their dreams, save their lives or answer their prayers. Even the Eddisians hardly believe in them. That sounds like the gods are not normally very actively involved.

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So it looks like everyone is satisfied and has gone on to other things, but...

Re: So it looks like everyone is satisfied and has gone on to other things, but...