Names

[dannybailey.livejournal.com]

Since I'm also procrastinating a paper... here's a question that's been tickling me and that was sort-of prompted by the poll below.

Does any reader out there feel odd about calling the characters names by which they are not referred to in the books? I don't know why, but in my head 'Irene' and 'Helen' are very personal names, almost as though they are reserved for moments of significance, and so it sounds strange to me to hear them used quite often in this comm. And of course, Eugenides made his feeling on the use of his nickname quite clear at the end of Thief. ;)

I suppose it's much like Remus Lupin in Harry Potter? Book-only fans usually call him Lupin, whereas in my head he's always Remus. (This being due to lots and lots of MWPP fanfiction. ^_^)

Comments

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it does feel weird to me. On that little poll I made, I almost put Attolia for Irene and Eddis for Helen, just 'cause that's often how I think about them myself. But due to how much those names are tossed around in the fandom--and I don't really have a problem with it--I decided to go with their given names. But I see where you're coming from for sure.

As for Gen's name...well, I guess I just answered by using the nickname. I'll use both, really, but usually just "Gen." I think it comes from not being sure how I want to pronounce his full name (I always used to say "Yoo-gen-I-dees" and then other people said "Yoo-GEN-i-dees" and so I just can't make up my mind anymore). Or thinking that it should only be used at certain times or something. IDK what I'm trying to say. I guess it's mostly that I fell in love with him as "Gen," and I think that nickname says a lot about who he is. He is this trickster, sort of, who always has something more going on in his own mind than most people realize, and for some reason, the shortened name--though it is a bit more young sounding--just captures that.

But I also like his full name. Gah! I don't know. Too much thinking and not enough paper writing. Must.Get.Off.LJ.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

if you had put Attolia and Eddis I would have had stronger feelings about the ships, I think. Like, the ship names in my head aren't Gen/Irene or Helen/Sophos, it's Gen/Attolia and Eddis/Sophos.

huh.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

if you had put Attolia and Eddis I would have had stronger feelings about the ships, I think.
Aw, shucks.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean! When I'm reading I don't read out loud so Eugenides sounds different in my head then when I say it out loud, so I rarely even try to say it out loud, like it's weird but I can't even say it, how i THINK it's pronounced..like it sounds different in my head and then when i try to enunciate it...yeah not sure if that makes any sense...

but hey..I'm hoping someone will chime in tell me i'm not COMPLETELY crazy...

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Haha. I think I know what you mean. I try to avoid saying it out loud now too 'cause I just feel so conflicted. I want to hold on stubbornly to the way I used to say it, but after listening to some of the Read Aloud, my tongue starts to get a little twisted between my old way and the way others say it. XD

You are not the only one

[queens-thief.livejournal.com]

No, I completely understand you! I have to concentrate when I call Attolia "Irene". I didn't really start calling her that until Gen did in KoA. I think because she has always been distant,oh never two dimensional, but not an intimate character until KoA.
Helen, eh I still call her Edis and I don't think that will change until manybe the new book.
Eugenides. I just love the rhythm of his name. I only call him "Gen" when I type. His name is also a bit cumbersome.
And the Magus! Have we learned his name? Either way he will always be "Magus" to me.
So do you think MWT has a purpose in keeping thier names distant and formal?

*needs an Eddis icon*

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

One more thing about Helen's name and why I usually think of her as Eddis, instead:

Eddis just seems to fit so well to me. She IS Eddis, you know? For one thing, she could have been Eddia as the queen, but she was like, "No! I'm going to be the best ruler ever, and even though I'm a woman, I'm gonna take the name Eddis! Deal with it!" (except not really) But that was perhaps a bit bold or unusual for her to do, only it wasn't, because that's who SHE as an individual is. (did that make any sense?)

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

I was unable to think of Attolia and Eddis as Irene and Helen for a while. The queen aspect was such an integral part of their identity I had trouble finding the more, uh, human side (not that the queens aren't human--just, more... queenly?). I still prefer hearing their queen names, especially in the books, because I think their real names stand out all the more when they're used, then.

Gen, though, he was always Gen, just because he's introduced that way in The Thief. I was used to it.

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

Attolia was Attolia before Megan humanized her. Now she's Irene to me.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

That's a Dalemark Quartet icon, isn't it? I bought that a few years ago at a used bookstore and STILL haven't managed to read it yet. I think because I loved HMC so much I just wasn't ready for DWJ with a very different feel. I like the icon, though. :)

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

It is! .....OH MY GOD YOU HAVEN'T?! It's pretty much my favorite thing she's ever written and it's AMAZING. You must read it, you must. The feel is indeed very different, but in such a good way.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Haha! I'm glad to have such a glowing recommendation. It was just me thinking, "What if this is that one DWJ thing that nobody likes" and I just couldn't get motivated to read it... But now I'll definitely move it up on the To Read list. :D

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

The wonderful (or unfortunate) thing about the Diana Wynne Jones fandom is how divisive it is in regards to favorties/bests. You've got the fans with mostly HMC exposure, the Chrestomanci fanatics, the hardcore Fire and Hemlock worshippers, the Hexwood elite, the bouncing Derkholm fans... We ardent Dalemark fans are small in number, but it's pretty universally agreed that the series is good. I only worship every drop of ink on every page. It does some very interesting things with its own internal history, which I think any Queen's Thief fan can appreciate.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Attolia is Attolia is Attolia. When I was younger I mostly just had a thing against the name Irene, and I think part of that stems from the fact that it sounds so different from Attolia--at its worse, "Ireeeeeeeeeeene" is a whiny-sounding name, while Attolia is dignified and sharp and then soft all at once (rather like...the character...). Ugh. Irene. I didn't become okay with it until the scene where Gen calls out for her after she's fainted, and even then, it's only okay for Gen to call her that. I am not in a position to be able to call her that. And I only accept that it's her name; I'm still not sure I like it.

Meanwhile I am in utter denial about Eddis's name. I mean just look at the conversation:

"Irene--"
"Don't call me that."
"You were the princess Irene when we first met."
"It means 'peace.' What name could be more inappropriate?"
"That I be named Helen?" Eddis suggested, and the hard lines in Attolia's face eased. The mountain queen's looks were a far cry from the woman whose face had launched a thousand ships.

That I be named Helen does not equal My name is Helen. In fact it suggests man it would be ironic if I was named Helen, but I am not in fact named Helen. I thought I was bad about Attolia's name being Irene before I encountered my mental block that is Eddis being a Helen.

As for Eugenides, he has become more Gen to me since joining Sounis--I think half of it is everyone's laziness in typing--but I do prefer Eugenides. It sounds better.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Attolia is Attolia is Attolia.
I do pretty much agree with you there. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I don't much care for the name Irene, either. To me, Irene is such an older name and not for a beautiful but deadly young queen who cuts off people's hands. It's for your grandma's best friend. Or in an awesome song by Dexy's Midnight Runners. But that's it.

Helen/Eddis...
I'm ok with it...but a lot of times, I do still just call her Eddis. Why do you dislike that so much? Just curious? I'm not particularly fond of it (moreso than Irene, though). I don't know. For me, it seems like the name Helen could work for her. For Attolia, it's almost laughable, just because of the old lady factor, that her name is Irene.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Helen and Irene are both old-lady names in my head, which doesn't help either.

I think part of it is because my brain said "ah her name is not Helen" based on KoA, and then it was like, what, four years between that and KoA? So KoA felt like it was forcing the name Helen on her and I a) didn't get why that was necessary and b) WHAT HUH SHE SAID HER NAME WASN'T HELEN. Like it just felt arbitrarily stuck in there for me. And then it wasn't even her actual name. It was the wrong name.

...I am vaguely sleep-exhausted which is probably part of why I'm reacting so viscerally at the moment, but even when I read KoA under normal circumstances, I gloss over the magus calling Eddis by any other name.

meanwhile, LOLOLOLOLOLOL EILEEN. LOLOL. LOL.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

darnit, I KNEW this would happen. :-b I have known a few awesome Helens...and a few of them happened to be awesome old ladies.

also if you remind people of Eddis that's like an automatic ticket to awesome land. :-D

also I love your icon. :-D

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

We could probably solve all this if we just stuck with Eddis and Attolia. Except for when Eugenides calls Attolia Irene. 'Cause he can do ANYTHING.HE.WANTS.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Ack! My brain must have vacated my skull for a minute there. Of course the song is Come On, Eileen, not Come On, Irene. lolololol Oops.

[missadventure02.livejournal.com]

That I be named Helen does not equal My name is Helen. In fact it suggests "man it would be ironic if I was named Helen", but I am not in fact named Helen.

You make a good point and I do think there is a bit of ambiguity in that scene, but I also think MWT took away that ambiguity by having the Magus call her Helen in KoA. (Page 316 Greenwillow hardcover)

"...It won't be long before things are settled and he negotiates your release. I will miss you when you go."
He smiled at her fondly. "No less than I will miss you, Helen. Did you send for me for a reason?"

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

And this scene is probably part of the reason I ship Eddis/Magus. (can't help it) Because he calls her "Helen" and it's ok.

[missadventure02.livejournal.com]

I know! Like Gen is the only one (I think?) that gets to call Attolia "Irene", maybe the Magus calling her Helen is some tiny hint of approval? I have a soft spot towards Sophos, but like someone said in the other post (don't remember who..), he's in my head as this blushing kid and blushing children do not a romance make. At the moment and probably until CoK comes out, I'm open to either ship, both of which I believe that MWT can make awesome and perfect. :D

[liereicarine.livejournal.com]

And I've just realised, when the Magus asks, "Did you send for me for a reason?", it implies that she sends for him without reason on other occasions. Like just to talk, and enjoy each other's company. Not at all like a formal Magus-of-Sounis-Queen-of-Eddis relationship!

It's not just me, is it? :)

[liereicarine.livejournal.com]

Hmm after reading that I thought it sounded a bit like I was exclaiming the fact that they were friendly with each other. But just to make it clear, I think that even good friends don't often ask the other to see them for no reason at all. Usually one calls the other to, I don't know, discuss new botany samples that one friend has found and wants to share, at least. :)

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

See, that's where my denial starts. I always read it as "one time I mentioned the name Helen in connection with Eddis I guess I meant that to be her name maybe sure it works but not if you go back and read the scene where that connection happens." :-b

[missadventure02.livejournal.com]

Hm... I see your point. I guess it depends on how you read the original scene. I read it as "You think your name is ironic? How about mine?" However, I do have a hard time actually calling her Helen. I think it is her real name, but I have a difficult time matching the name Helen to my mental picture of Eddis. Like for it to be Official Gen needs to call her Helen and he's never done that (as far as I can remember... but then it was mostly "My Queen" from him and he and Eddis never had face-to-face contact in KoA).

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

HEY I was going to do this post! Seriously, someone I just recced the books to and read them found it kinda strange calling the country and person the same name. Also note MoW doesn't have a first name and the Magus is just the Magus.

I tend to call them Irene and Helen in discussion and in my head depending on how personal the context. But when I was emailing said aforementioned friend I kept typing Eddis and Attolia and having to go back and change them to Helen and Irene.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

I love your icon
and feel like sending it to mwt write now!!
LOL
sorry just had to throw that in!

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

The country and the ruler having the same name isn't all that unusual--just look at the famous "L'etat, c'est moi" quote by one of the historical rules of French. In this case, it's basically ingrained into the broader culture of the three kingdoms that the ruler is the country, which is why they take on the regnal names that they do.

At least, that was my interpretation of it.

[liereicarine.livejournal.com]

At first I used to find it weird that they were called after their country, but now I have the opposite problem! I can't think about them using their first names without feeling odd.

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

I know how you feel. I used to just call them Eddis and Attolia, but now I use them interchangeably for some reason. At first I refused to call Attolia Irene because her name reminded me of the movie The Princess and the Goblin. Then my friend told me I was pronouncing it incorrectly, and now I'm ok with it. As for Eugenides, I still call him Gen, whether he likes it or not...

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

The only personalized name I use is Gen because of the Thief. Attolia and Eddis are Attolia and Eddis to me and probably always will be.

[whimsical-lark.livejournal.com]

I have a hard time thinking of the queens by their "real" names. To me, they're Attolia and Eddis. Irene and Helen don't seem to fully...ah, represent them, I guess. They don't feel right, or natural, to me; Attolia and Eddis do.

Eugenides is Eugenides, because he said he didn't like being called Gen, and, well, how can I go against his wishes?

I do wish the Magus had a name, though. "The Magus" feels too much like a title to me (which makes sense, since it is, doh), completely impersonal.

[icastlecaptured.livejournal.com]

It's funny, Attolia is "Attolia" in my head, but Helen and Eddis are pretty much interchangeable. I think it has to do with how close we are to the characters? I don't have any trouble with seeing Attolia as Irene, but I feel as if I would need her permission to think of her like that. Whereas Helen has much closer relationships with people, and a past of having had that name used on her with fondness.

On another note, does anyone else refer to Eddis the country and Eddis the person differently? I always make the distinction in my head by pronouncing Eddis the country beginning with "ee" like it's supposed to, but I use a soft one for the queen.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

After reading MWT's explanation of the vowel change, I started to use 'Eeddis' for both country and queen when it's an Eddisian or the narrative voice speaking, and 'Eddis' when it's an Attolian or Sounisian.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

That's what I do, too, TA.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

Not so keen on Irene, mostly because when I hear it I think of the horrible Aunt Irene from Jane of Lantern Hill by L. M. Montgomery. I don't mind the other names and sometimes use them, but I think of Gen and Eddis as - well, I just answered that one. Using the names they were first given. It's hard to just re-name a character in your head!

And lolol 'Remus'. I never read a lot of MWPP-era fanfic, but other members of my family have, so they call him 'Remus' while I cringe. He's a teacher.