Evil, or just... persistent?

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering since reading the most recent book whether the Mede Empire can be called evil without being a little hypocritical. Certainly we don't want them to expand through our three little countries and make Eugenides's and everyone else's life less pleasant (or shorter). So I'm not suggesting changing their status to anything other than "The Bad Guys," but really, it could be said that they're just persistent and ambitious empire-builders. In some ways, the tactics they use are comparable to, say, Attolia's before she married Gen, or Sounis's, or any of the many meanie barons filling the two lowland countries.



Off the top of my head, first 3 things the Medes have done that are bad...

1. Nahuseresh urged Attolia to cut off Gen's hand. He did it intending to incite a violent political conflict. But honestly, he didn't make her do it, and he didn't make Eddis declare the subsequent war, either. Is this any more reprehensible than, on a smaller scale, Eugenides baiting Costis to punch him in the face? If you bait a dog, it bites. But as Teleus points out, men are not dogs.


2. He murdered barons while Attolia's back was turned. Murder's murder. Out of curiosity, I wonder how much of what he did in Attolia was okayed beforehand by his superiors back in the Fatherland? (er... the Mede Empire...)


3. He provided the services of the assassins that attacked Eugenides in KoA. But then, the king of Sounis paid for them and used them.

I bet there are more... yep, just thought of a fourth.

Anyway, to what extent are the things that the ambassadors have done out of the ordinary for the politics of this world? We know Attolia's court is already a cesspit; political murders happen all the time. A husband and a suitor both kicked the bucket at her hands alone, simply to secure her throne for herself. Although I recognize that these were ruthless things for her to do, truth be told they're part of what I like about her character. She's the Ice Queen.

When Sophos killed Hanaktos, I cheered, and then cheered again when he shot Akretenesh (which is inciting a war if I ever saw it! though, admittedly, not in a pre-planned, manipulative-bastard kind of way). And if I can be perfectly honest... although I find him slimy, like Attolia did, I also found myself really kind of liking Nahuseresh's character in QoA from getting to see all his interactions with Kamet. He was a bastard, but he wasn't pure scum, either. And Gen himself is nothing if not a bastard sometimes. (Magnificently so, but still.)

Basically, my question is, are we thinking of the Medes as evil primarily because they happen to be working against the wishes of our main characters, or, if the roles were reversed, would the Medes still just be evil? For that matter, am I right in thinking everyone feels the Medes are evil to some extent, or does someone disagree? What Mede evilness am I missing?

Comments

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

I agree that the Medes for the most part act in ways that will benefit their empire's interests politically -- just as all of our characters do -- rather than in ways that are specifically evil.

I also think that it is hard to buy into moral urgency that is presented by (kingdoms of free men ruled by law) Attolia-Eddis-Sounis trying to defend themselves from conquest by the (empire of slaves obedient to an emperor) Medes. As you say, each country has been trying to conquer or at least control the others (and it now appears that Eugenides will control them all!); we know that outright slavery and very strong class distinctions hold even in these "good" kingdoms. Put another way: brought up, as we moderns have been, on social history, we might ask: what difference it would really make to the average household of okloi if the Medes rule or if the current barons and kings and queens do?

However, the kind of imperialism the Medes practice does seem different from the internal wars between Eddis/Attolia/Sounis in at least one very important way. The latter have occurred as basically land-distribution wars among countries who speak the same language and, for the most part, worship the same gods; who have the same social and governmental structures, who share a common literary and cultural heritage.

The Medes -- and this is the point that is repeatedly brought up in CoK -- assimilate and export their own culture, government, perhaps even language, onto the countries they conquer. Fighting against that is something I can get behind!

(This isn't to say that Medes don't have good reasons for expanding: they may be in a vicious cycle of increasingly large armies requiring increasingly more tribute to pay (requiring a larger army to conquer the land to pay the tribute...); they may be over-populated; the emperor may need things for his ambitious noblemen to do so that they don't start civil wars...)

[creative-lefty2.livejournal.com]

This is what I really enjoy about these books: there is no evil antagonist. The Medes are the "bad guys" simply because they are the opposition. It these stories were from a Mede point of view, we would probably be sympathetic with them. Although if the development of their characters does not become more varied I will be disappointed.

In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

"A husband and a suitor both kicked the bucket at her hands alone, simply to secure her throne for herself."

Except that the husband and suitor were both interested only in getting everything they could for themselves. "...she'd listened as her fiance and his father talked over their plans to destroy the king and to wring whatever power and riches they could from her throne, sucking her country dry to feed their appetites." (p. 156 of hardcover QoA)

And when Eugenides gives her the choice of marrying him or death, he says, "You would rule. I will not interfere, but you will accept Eddisian advisors."

"Then I watch my country bled dry to pay Eddis tribute, its treasury drained, its taxes raised, its peasants enslaved, and the barons again the true rulers of the country, free to do as they please so long as the king is fed?"

"Do you care," asked Eugenides, "so long as the queen is fed as well?"

"Yes," Attolia hissed, and leaned forward with her hands clenched." (p. 188)

I'm not claiming that Attolia is acting out of pure altruism, but she genuinely has her country's best interest at heart, and killing the husband and suitor was in defense of her country as well as herself.

The Mede are evil because they are trying to take over countries that offer no threat to them. When Sophos talks about what it's like for countries that the Medes take over. "I know what comes of the Mede occupation. In a generation, or perhaps two, Sounis and Attolia and Eddis will be gone. Only Medes will serve in the government, only Medes will hold public office, only Medes will own land or hold wealth. They will knock down the old temples and control the guilds and the trades, and the Sounisians will be left okloi, or worse, beggars in their own cities." (ACoK, p. 138)

Eddis wasn't ever trying to take over anything. Sounis (the uncle, not the nephew) was trying to undermine her rule. He was financing the revolts of Attolia's barons (p. 16, QoA). I'll concede to you that his actions were evil, because while the magus may have been concerned with keeping the Mede out, Sounis seemed more interested in taking over the two other countries for his own benefit.

Eugenides isn't seeking power for its own sake. He was defending Eddis; he was marrying the woman he loved; and he's defending both his countries, and now Sounis as well, from the Mede. He's not planning to do any interfering in internal stuff, or draining any of the countries for his benefit. Add to that the fact that the Mede will knock down the temples of gods he knows to be real - it isn't even faith, in his case; faith is belief in things that can't be proven; he's had clear proof.

As to Sophos' shooting the baron and the ambassador; he can hardly be accused of being the one to start any war that results, when the Mede had already invaded Sounis. Bringing in 10,000 soldiers to another country, even if it is with the collaboration of rebel barons, is an act of war.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Also, the Mede use smelly hair oil and have execrable taste in clothing and furniture, and are so stupid that they think Attolia is easily led. Clearly, they are evil.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

"(This isn't to say that Medes don't have good reasons for expanding: they may be in a vicious cycle of increasingly large armies requiring increasingly more tribute to pay (requiring a larger army to conquer the land to pay the tribute...); they may be over-populated; the emperor may need things for his ambitious noblemen to do so that they don't start civil wars...)"

Then they should disband the army and that would solve the problem of needing to pay for them. And overpopulation would be no excuse; if they're so all-fired crowded they can move peacefully to other countries, or go find an uninhabited island somewhere. (I'm a bit touchy about this because of the whole Nazi thing about "Lebensraum." I have a German elementary school math textbook from that era; and the math problems consist in part of, "If there are this many Germans on this much land, how many countries should we take over so we have more room?")

And if the emperor is so worried about his barons, deal with them, don't inflict them on innocent bystanders.

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

They don't seem to think women are particularly capable on a whole.

Someday the ambassador (cannae remember his name!) will be walking down a corridor and run across Eddis and Attolia. Violence will ensue.

Eugenides and Sophos will be laughing in a niche nearby.

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

The Medes aren't evil. They're just looking out for their own self-interest, like everyone else. We root for Attolia/Eddis/Sounis because that's where our favourite characters are, and they're the underdogs. I'm not saying the Medes are great, but I definitely would not call them evil.

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

I agree that they aren't necessarily justifiable reasons to people who aren't the Medes.

And I think it's actually one of the things that makes the Medes (seem) evil: the fact that they seem to perceive other countries and their customs (particularly ones not in their cultural tradition) as basically irrelevant, inferior, and not worth serious consideration, except as targets for colonialism/imperialism. (I think "imperialist" was the word I was looking for in my last post and not quite getting).

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

This is a great analysis of the situation! This whole discussion is making me reevaluate some of my attitudes toward the Medes.

One thing I've been thinking of is that most of us who live in the Western world (I, for example, in the U.S.A), participate in countries that have basically acted like the Mede Empire at some point--assimilating other countries and peoples either militarily or economically. I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion or imply anything offensive, I'm just saying that when I look at it this way, it makes me think differently about the Medes. I agree that the monarchs of Eddis, Sounis, and Attolia exert their power for much better motives, and I'm still all for them and am ready and willing to see the Medes put in their place. But Medes are people too, and probably closer to some of us and our favorite characters than we might initially think.

(Another reason I love these books: they make me think about LIFE.)

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

Ha! I want to see this!

[ilysia-039.livejournal.com]

Also, the Mede use smelly hair oil and have execrable taste in clothing and furniture, and are so stupid that they think Attolia is easily led. Clearly, they are evil.

I believe that you have hit upon it.

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

And on the other hand, we from the Western world recognize the Mede Empire as, well, Medes & Persians & Ottomans: those sneaky and mysteriously-cultured but slavish orientalists that "our people" defeated at Marathon and Salamis and kept out of Vienna and tried to keep out of the Balkans...

So while the Medes are the bad guys, that fact both makes complete sense, given the heritage most of us are bringing to the books, and is highly problematic, because it feeds into questionable and very-charged racial and cultural stereotypes.

Just have to say...

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

"Cannae"! I love Scottish-isms!

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Not apologizing for being deeply thankful for the victory at the gates of Vienna, and for the Battle of Lepanto, and I don't really care if that "feeds into questionable and very-charged racial and cultural stereotypes."

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

Good point--in many ways choosing a "bad guy" is almost always highly problematic, so I guess I'm grateful that MWT has presented us with a comparatively complex one, both in terms of actual appearance in the books and in associations for the readers.

[empmai.livejournal.com]

Techncally in the under-handness of taking over other counties to build an empire bad guys Gen would have to be included after the lastest book.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Not really. He's not taking over the countries per se; not going in, putting his own men in all the positions of authority, stripping them of their land and money, destroying the temples of their gods, changing their language.

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

Yes! Because I absolutely agree that the cultural/political imperialism/colonialism per se has different echoes.

And on a related note, did anyone else get weird contemporary resonances when Eugenides said "The easiest way to end a war is to admit that you have lost it."?

I couldn't help thinking about the US in Afghanistan and Iraq (and back to Vietnam), even though, obviously, the contexts are rather different.

[katecoombs.livejournal.com]

At the risk of sounding political, I am reminded that the government of one of the larger U.S. states recently decided to rewrite high school history books, changing the word "imperialism" to "expansionism."

Attolia, Eddis, and Sounis are natural allies who wouldn't be out fighting anyone if they weren't being threatened with the equivalent of a hostile takeover of the culture-crushing kind. (I'm ignoring the power aspirations of Sophos's late, little-lamented uncle.)

Of course, the Medes would tell you that they're merely bringing really cool deep blue glass wine cups to the benighted barbarians (CofK 163-4)!

Ultimately, it's almost always about "us vs. them"--how many fantasies can we find without a (usually tyrannical) antagonist?

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Bringing in 10,000 soldiers to another country, even if it is with the collaboration of rebel barons, is an act of war.

True, but, to play devil's advocate here, he didn't know the soldiers were there at the time. He really only had the (well-founded) suspicion that the Medes would rule through his regent when he shot Hanaktos, and shooting Akretenesh happened after Akretenesh's soldiers came out of the stage... but after those soldiers had been shot by Sophos's side's own crossbows.

In reality, I agree with you, that our main characters are personally not out for power and wealth and whatnot, and I dislike the Medes because they are an imperialist culture-killing empire. Still, does the end justify the means for all the stuff Attolia, Eugenides, and Sophos have done? I don't think they should have let their countries get overrun, or, in Attolia's case, let barons ruin her country for their own personal gain. And it's probably true that no other solution would have been effective. (Except maybe in Sophos's case.)

But I agree with creative_lefty2 that we are really dealing with gray-and-gray morality here, not even remotely black-and-white. I like that about this series.

And wow! I never knew there were so many people with strong opinions about all of this :)

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Interesting point, since I actually hadn't considered Gen's putting-together of the three countries to be one of the potentially "evil" (note quotes) things that he had done, since it's part of his plan to fight the Medes. But it's true that what he is really doing is putting the highest authority in Sounis and Eddis (the king and the queen) under his own power, for the purpose of strengthening his own rule, for the purpose of being able to fight bigger and badder in war. That's empire-building practically by definition. aged_crone makes a good point too, though, that while he is taking over countries, he isn't swallowing cultures. And ricardienne mentioned way up at the top of this page that he's limiting himself to the other countries that share his language and cultural heritage. And, even if they worship new gods now in Sounis and most of Attolia, they worshipped the old gods once and probably wouldn't be horribly put out to see those beliefs strengthened again.

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yes on the weird contemporary resonances.

But the interesting thing here is that in ACoK, Gen and Attolia have an advantage. It's Sounis (country) that's in trouble when Gen says it -- there's a civil war on, and the country is in a really tough spot if they continues the war with Attolia, because Eddis and Attolia are unlikely to war again. Attolia (country) has the luxury of being able to *demand* that Sounis admit that they've lost it and do the pledge thingy.

Sorry, I'm getting inarticulate here. But what I mean is that it's interesting that it's different in the parallels you pointed out because they're cases of the US invading/assisting (...) far away countries and not being able to pull off what they intended, leaving the "host" country unstable and in disarray. But in qt, It's SOUNIS that's unstable and in disarray, and Attolia that's sitting there waiting for things to work out in its favor.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Not many, but what's so fascinating about the situation MWT has created is that there aren't any evil wizards trying to sacrifice innocents or kings whose sole goal is to reduce their enemies to smoking piles of rubble. Everyone has a believable political motive, and the "us vs. them" thing could be reversed if you were living on the other side of the fence, so to speak.

Even though it's been pointed out that the Medes could potentially end up destroying the indigenous ways of life in the three countries if they took over, they aren't looking to kill everyday common people---they need to have someone to rule over, after all. And I suspect, knowing how MWT likes to base her world on real history, that the Medes' propensity to eradicate the gods of the people they conquer might be similar to what the Romans did. It's just easier to keep an empire cohesive if everyone has the same faith. The exact reason Eugenides will have an easier time making allies out of the Eddisians and Sounisians is probably the reason the Medes would want their religion to change if they ever got ahold of them.

So... I think what I'm saying is, I agree with you.

And uch, your first point. No comment, but... uch.

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Considerably different, and I think it is very unwise to discuss current politics on this list. I will not discuss the matter with you because I disagree considerably and that is not the reason for this list.

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Doesn't really matter whether he knew it or not; the point is, they were there, and a whole bunch of them had just popped out from behind the scenes (literally) to kill the king of Sounis (because regency or not, he's still king).

As to Baron Hanaktos: his men, under orders, had invaded Sophos' family home and slaughtered the guards and the servants; kidnapped and beaten and enslaved the heir to the throne; plotted with a foreign power. I doubt that their legal system is much like ours, and Sophos' shooting of him I'm willing to consider a justified execution.