Evil, or just... persistent?

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering since reading the most recent book whether the Mede Empire can be called evil without being a little hypocritical. Certainly we don't want them to expand through our three little countries and make Eugenides's and everyone else's life less pleasant (or shorter). So I'm not suggesting changing their status to anything other than "The Bad Guys," but really, it could be said that they're just persistent and ambitious empire-builders. In some ways, the tactics they use are comparable to, say, Attolia's before she married Gen, or Sounis's, or any of the many meanie barons filling the two lowland countries.



Off the top of my head, first 3 things the Medes have done that are bad...

1. Nahuseresh urged Attolia to cut off Gen's hand. He did it intending to incite a violent political conflict. But honestly, he didn't make her do it, and he didn't make Eddis declare the subsequent war, either. Is this any more reprehensible than, on a smaller scale, Eugenides baiting Costis to punch him in the face? If you bait a dog, it bites. But as Teleus points out, men are not dogs.


2. He murdered barons while Attolia's back was turned. Murder's murder. Out of curiosity, I wonder how much of what he did in Attolia was okayed beforehand by his superiors back in the Fatherland? (er... the Mede Empire...)


3. He provided the services of the assassins that attacked Eugenides in KoA. But then, the king of Sounis paid for them and used them.

I bet there are more... yep, just thought of a fourth.

Anyway, to what extent are the things that the ambassadors have done out of the ordinary for the politics of this world? We know Attolia's court is already a cesspit; political murders happen all the time. A husband and a suitor both kicked the bucket at her hands alone, simply to secure her throne for herself. Although I recognize that these were ruthless things for her to do, truth be told they're part of what I like about her character. She's the Ice Queen.

When Sophos killed Hanaktos, I cheered, and then cheered again when he shot Akretenesh (which is inciting a war if I ever saw it! though, admittedly, not in a pre-planned, manipulative-bastard kind of way). And if I can be perfectly honest... although I find him slimy, like Attolia did, I also found myself really kind of liking Nahuseresh's character in QoA from getting to see all his interactions with Kamet. He was a bastard, but he wasn't pure scum, either. And Gen himself is nothing if not a bastard sometimes. (Magnificently so, but still.)

Basically, my question is, are we thinking of the Medes as evil primarily because they happen to be working against the wishes of our main characters, or, if the roles were reversed, would the Medes still just be evil? For that matter, am I right in thinking everyone feels the Medes are evil to some extent, or does someone disagree? What Mede evilness am I missing?

Comments

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

I agree that the Medes for the most part act in ways that will benefit their empire's interests politically -- just as all of our characters do -- rather than in ways that are specifically evil.

I also think that it is hard to buy into moral urgency that is presented by (kingdoms of free men ruled by law) Attolia-Eddis-Sounis trying to defend themselves from conquest by the (empire of slaves obedient to an emperor) Medes. As you say, each country has been trying to conquer or at least control the others (and it now appears that Eugenides will control them all!); we know that outright slavery and very strong class distinctions hold even in these "good" kingdoms. Put another way: brought up, as we moderns have been, on social history, we might ask: what difference it would really make to the average household of okloi if the Medes rule or if the current barons and kings and queens do?

However, the kind of imperialism the Medes practice does seem different from the internal wars between Eddis/Attolia/Sounis in at least one very important way. The latter have occurred as basically land-distribution wars among countries who speak the same language and, for the most part, worship the same gods; who have the same social and governmental structures, who share a common literary and cultural heritage.

The Medes -- and this is the point that is repeatedly brought up in CoK -- assimilate and export their own culture, government, perhaps even language, onto the countries they conquer. Fighting against that is something I can get behind!

(This isn't to say that Medes don't have good reasons for expanding: they may be in a vicious cycle of increasingly large armies requiring increasingly more tribute to pay (requiring a larger army to conquer the land to pay the tribute...); they may be over-populated; the emperor may need things for his ambitious noblemen to do so that they don't start civil wars...)

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

"(This isn't to say that Medes don't have good reasons for expanding: they may be in a vicious cycle of increasingly large armies requiring increasingly more tribute to pay (requiring a larger army to conquer the land to pay the tribute...); they may be over-populated; the emperor may need things for his ambitious noblemen to do so that they don't start civil wars...)"

Then they should disband the army and that would solve the problem of needing to pay for them. And overpopulation would be no excuse; if they're so all-fired crowded they can move peacefully to other countries, or go find an uninhabited island somewhere. (I'm a bit touchy about this because of the whole Nazi thing about "Lebensraum." I have a German elementary school math textbook from that era; and the math problems consist in part of, "If there are this many Germans on this much land, how many countries should we take over so we have more room?")

And if the emperor is so worried about his barons, deal with them, don't inflict them on innocent bystanders.

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

This isn't to say that Medes don't have good reasons for expanding: they may be in a vicious cycle of increasingly large armies requiring increasingly more tribute to pay (requiring a larger army to conquer the land to pay the tribute...); they may be over-populated; the emperor may need things for his ambitious noblemen to do so that they don't start civil wars...

You know, it's funny. You're practically describing Sounis right there, the way it/he was described in the first book.

[creative-lefty2.livejournal.com]

This is what I really enjoy about these books: there is no evil antagonist. The Medes are the "bad guys" simply because they are the opposition. It these stories were from a Mede point of view, we would probably be sympathetic with them. Although if the development of their characters does not become more varied I will be disappointed.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I agree, the Mede ambassadors in ACoK are remarkably similar to each other, and, except that we got a bit more depth from Nahuseresh in QoA, they were remarkably similar to him, too. The most interesting thing about them for me was that Melheret is described as being rather old and he lifts his pants like a skirt!

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Although if the development of their characters does not become more varied I will be disappointed.
THIS. I admit....well, maybe I can't say anymore because of spoilers for CoK, so yes. I agree 100%

In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

"A husband and a suitor both kicked the bucket at her hands alone, simply to secure her throne for herself."

Except that the husband and suitor were both interested only in getting everything they could for themselves. "...she'd listened as her fiance and his father talked over their plans to destroy the king and to wring whatever power and riches they could from her throne, sucking her country dry to feed their appetites." (p. 156 of hardcover QoA)

And when Eugenides gives her the choice of marrying him or death, he says, "You would rule. I will not interfere, but you will accept Eddisian advisors."

"Then I watch my country bled dry to pay Eddis tribute, its treasury drained, its taxes raised, its peasants enslaved, and the barons again the true rulers of the country, free to do as they please so long as the king is fed?"

"Do you care," asked Eugenides, "so long as the queen is fed as well?"

"Yes," Attolia hissed, and leaned forward with her hands clenched." (p. 188)

I'm not claiming that Attolia is acting out of pure altruism, but she genuinely has her country's best interest at heart, and killing the husband and suitor was in defense of her country as well as herself.

The Mede are evil because they are trying to take over countries that offer no threat to them. When Sophos talks about what it's like for countries that the Medes take over. "I know what comes of the Mede occupation. In a generation, or perhaps two, Sounis and Attolia and Eddis will be gone. Only Medes will serve in the government, only Medes will hold public office, only Medes will own land or hold wealth. They will knock down the old temples and control the guilds and the trades, and the Sounisians will be left okloi, or worse, beggars in their own cities." (ACoK, p. 138)

Eddis wasn't ever trying to take over anything. Sounis (the uncle, not the nephew) was trying to undermine her rule. He was financing the revolts of Attolia's barons (p. 16, QoA). I'll concede to you that his actions were evil, because while the magus may have been concerned with keeping the Mede out, Sounis seemed more interested in taking over the two other countries for his own benefit.

Eugenides isn't seeking power for its own sake. He was defending Eddis; he was marrying the woman he loved; and he's defending both his countries, and now Sounis as well, from the Mede. He's not planning to do any interfering in internal stuff, or draining any of the countries for his benefit. Add to that the fact that the Mede will knock down the temples of gods he knows to be real - it isn't even faith, in his case; faith is belief in things that can't be proven; he's had clear proof.

As to Sophos' shooting the baron and the ambassador; he can hardly be accused of being the one to start any war that results, when the Mede had already invaded Sounis. Bringing in 10,000 soldiers to another country, even if it is with the collaboration of rebel barons, is an act of war.

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

This is a great analysis of the situation! This whole discussion is making me reevaluate some of my attitudes toward the Medes.

One thing I've been thinking of is that most of us who live in the Western world (I, for example, in the U.S.A), participate in countries that have basically acted like the Mede Empire at some point--assimilating other countries and peoples either militarily or economically. I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion or imply anything offensive, I'm just saying that when I look at it this way, it makes me think differently about the Medes. I agree that the monarchs of Eddis, Sounis, and Attolia exert their power for much better motives, and I'm still all for them and am ready and willing to see the Medes put in their place. But Medes are people too, and probably closer to some of us and our favorite characters than we might initially think.

(Another reason I love these books: they make me think about LIFE.)

Re: In which some spoilers for ACoK are included, so tread warily

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Bringing in 10,000 soldiers to another country, even if it is with the collaboration of rebel barons, is an act of war.

True, but, to play devil's advocate here, he didn't know the soldiers were there at the time. He really only had the (well-founded) suspicion that the Medes would rule through his regent when he shot Hanaktos, and shooting Akretenesh happened after Akretenesh's soldiers came out of the stage... but after those soldiers had been shot by Sophos's side's own crossbows.

In reality, I agree with you, that our main characters are personally not out for power and wealth and whatnot, and I dislike the Medes because they are an imperialist culture-killing empire. Still, does the end justify the means for all the stuff Attolia, Eugenides, and Sophos have done? I don't think they should have let their countries get overrun, or, in Attolia's case, let barons ruin her country for their own personal gain. And it's probably true that no other solution would have been effective. (Except maybe in Sophos's case.)

But I agree with creative_lefty2 that we are really dealing with gray-and-gray morality here, not even remotely black-and-white. I like that about this series.

And wow! I never knew there were so many people with strong opinions about all of this :)

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Also, the Mede use smelly hair oil and have execrable taste in clothing and furniture, and are so stupid that they think Attolia is easily led. Clearly, they are evil.

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

They don't seem to think women are particularly capable on a whole.

Someday the ambassador (cannae remember his name!) will be walking down a corridor and run across Eddis and Attolia. Violence will ensue.

Eugenides and Sophos will be laughing in a niche nearby.

[ilysia-039.livejournal.com]

Also, the Mede use smelly hair oil and have execrable taste in clothing and furniture, and are so stupid that they think Attolia is easily led. Clearly, they are evil.

I believe that you have hit upon it.

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

The Medes aren't evil. They're just looking out for their own self-interest, like everyone else. We root for Attolia/Eddis/Sounis because that's where our favourite characters are, and they're the underdogs. I'm not saying the Medes are great, but I definitely would not call them evil.

[empmai.livejournal.com]

Techncally in the under-handness of taking over other counties to build an empire bad guys Gen would have to be included after the lastest book.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Not really. He's not taking over the countries per se; not going in, putting his own men in all the positions of authority, stripping them of their land and money, destroying the temples of their gods, changing their language.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Interesting point, since I actually hadn't considered Gen's putting-together of the three countries to be one of the potentially "evil" (note quotes) things that he had done, since it's part of his plan to fight the Medes. But it's true that what he is really doing is putting the highest authority in Sounis and Eddis (the king and the queen) under his own power, for the purpose of strengthening his own rule, for the purpose of being able to fight bigger and badder in war. That's empire-building practically by definition. aged_crone makes a good point too, though, that while he is taking over countries, he isn't swallowing cultures. And ricardienne mentioned way up at the top of this page that he's limiting himself to the other countries that share his language and cultural heritage. And, even if they worship new gods now in Sounis and most of Attolia, they worshipped the old gods once and probably wouldn't be horribly put out to see those beliefs strengthened again.

[katecoombs.livejournal.com]

At the risk of sounding political, I am reminded that the government of one of the larger U.S. states recently decided to rewrite high school history books, changing the word "imperialism" to "expansionism."

Attolia, Eddis, and Sounis are natural allies who wouldn't be out fighting anyone if they weren't being threatened with the equivalent of a hostile takeover of the culture-crushing kind. (I'm ignoring the power aspirations of Sophos's late, little-lamented uncle.)

Of course, the Medes would tell you that they're merely bringing really cool deep blue glass wine cups to the benighted barbarians (CofK 163-4)!

Ultimately, it's almost always about "us vs. them"--how many fantasies can we find without a (usually tyrannical) antagonist?

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Not many, but what's so fascinating about the situation MWT has created is that there aren't any evil wizards trying to sacrifice innocents or kings whose sole goal is to reduce their enemies to smoking piles of rubble. Everyone has a believable political motive, and the "us vs. them" thing could be reversed if you were living on the other side of the fence, so to speak.

Even though it's been pointed out that the Medes could potentially end up destroying the indigenous ways of life in the three countries if they took over, they aren't looking to kill everyday common people---they need to have someone to rule over, after all. And I suspect, knowing how MWT likes to base her world on real history, that the Medes' propensity to eradicate the gods of the people they conquer might be similar to what the Romans did. It's just easier to keep an empire cohesive if everyone has the same faith. The exact reason Eugenides will have an easier time making allies out of the Eddisians and Sounisians is probably the reason the Medes would want their religion to change if they ever got ahold of them.

So... I think what I'm saying is, I agree with you.

And uch, your first point. No comment, but... uch.

[queens-thief.livejournal.com]

Wow you opened an intruiging discussion here.
POV is everything as we should all well know. But POV is not the reason I detest the Mede Empire and its oily ambassadors.
For me, I hate the Medes not because they are tring to concquer,though I certainly don't want them to concquer our beloved countires. Its thier (meaning the ambassadors and the Empire) hubris. They are so full of their importance, might and cunning that they don't even try to know their enemy. They believe they are the best simply because they are Mede.
I couldn't believe that the ambassadors in ACoK were making the same assumptions and mistakes that Nauhusaresh made with Attolia.
Thank goodness though because this is their downfall.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

This discussion is making me think of what Eddis says to Sophos after she comes back wondering if she can forgive him for the lengths he's gone to.

"We are not philosophers, we are sovereigns. The rules that govern our behavior are not the rules for other men, and our honor, I think, is a different thing entirely, difficult for anyone but the historians and the gods to judge."

And we, it seems, are sort of being the historians. :)

Also, it's ironic that "barbarian" means "bearded person." Because it's the Medes who have the beards (or at least Nahuseresh)

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Lol!

And that quote kind of sums it up perfectly. All of them are doing things that, in normal people, would be considered unacceptable (criminal, maybe even mentally disturbed). But we, both as readers and as our own moral judges, have to decide if we're going to forgive them for that because they have so many other people relying on the decisions they make. Me, I'm inclined to. That might just be because they're so darned cute, though.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they aren't exactly quick on the uptake, are they? "Ummm - babe? You know the queen who outsmarted and humiliated one of the ambassadors from your country? Even though she's a woman? Can you draw any conclusions from that?"

Also, I thought I remembered reading something about the origin of "barbarian," and I checked. There's dispute. It may mean "speaking a foreign language" rather than "bearded." http://en.allexperts.com/q/Etymology-Meaning-Words-1474/Barbarian.htm

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

You've hit the nail on the head. The Medes aren't evil; they are an accurate representation of every run-of-the-mill expansionist empire in history, from Egypt to Persia to Rome to Spain to America. Prosperous nations invariably see themselves as better than less prosperous nations, and feel it's both their right and duty to swallow ever more cultures and countries. And some of the countries the Mede Empire has absorbed could be better off in some ways.

Medea is self-serving, not villainous.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

I am not articulate enough to join le convo at the moment and therefore agree with everything put so well above =]

[teenareena.livejournal.com]

I have been reading this discussion for a while before I decided to jump in, since my point of view would definitely be different from lots of you guys and I don't want to offend anyone.

Because I'm looking at it through the eyes of a tiny country far away in a peninsula where those global force kept coming and had a go at us.

The British and the French each have their turns and we ends up had to hack some part of the country off to keep the whole. Then we have to deal with Japan during WWII. There's also those cold-war year where we have to juggle the US and China to keep ourselves politically independent.

I can't honestly say whether we will be better off or not without the technology and stuffs from the westerner but it's alos our national pride that we were never occupied by any of those force.

However, I'm not saying that what you guys are saying is completely wrong or anything. I think it's a matter of PoV and what we have experienced in the past.

Anyway, it's all history!

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

I'm in a hurry, so skimming, so please forgive me if I'm restating something others have said. I've noticed that the Medes aren't really evil in the generic sense and have actually wondered if there will be some Grand Reveal down the line, where they turn out to have been confused all along. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd find that sort of resolution entirely satisfying, so I'm sort of hoping that's not in the cards.