Thoughts on morality...

[finding-further.livejournal.com]

Hi all. I wanted to share this link to a blog where a handful of YA authors (MWT included) share their thoughts on morals, values and lessons in YA literature. Fascinating reading!!

ETA: Plus, we get a peek into why jacket design and copy are so important to MWT, and why she intentionally included a curse in the first twenty pages of TT.

Comments

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

I promise it's not just the fact that I love these books, but MWT's view was actually the closest to my own, I think (maybe with a bit of M.T. Anderson's thrown in).

[finding-further.livejournal.com]

I got the impression MWT put her author cap in her back pocket when she answered this and responded more as a parent than a writer. There are a variety of lessons, morals and values woven into her stories -- the duty of a good King (or Queen), the value of kindness over beauty, the necessity of mercy over blind justice, the moral ambiguity of deception, etc. -- and I would've loved to hear her perspectives on including these in her work.

I, too, loved M.T. Anderson's response!

[timeisinfinite.livejournal.com]

I, too agree that I relate most to MWT's views, although I am neither a parent nor author (at least not yet :P). I think in general, the authors had the same views, that the morals that could be found in their books by readers themselves weren't meant to be lectured and forced into the reader's head.

And can anyone point out the curse that MWT uses? I just re-read the first 20 pages of TT searching for it, wondering how in the world I could've missed it every time I've read TT, and I still couldn't find it :P Ah, naive me. So does anyone mind pointing out what the word is and what page number?

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I love that she's thinking about what she puts into her books, about how every word can be dissected, and that she's not preaching to her readers like other authors do.

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

Remember children, do not offend the gods ;-)

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sharing this!

Morality in fiction, and in reading, is something I think about a lot, so it was really good to see that authors (and other readers) are thinking about it too.

[finding-further.livejournal.com]

I must admit, I enjoyed the readers' comments almost as much as the authors' comments. Shannon Hale attracts some very opinionated readers. :o

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

I swear it's not just that I'm a Sounisian that hers was my favorite response, really!

My parents did this. They let me read what I chose, even if it was adult or whatever. I mean, they would look at it first, but they always let me get it, with this little talk about how I could talk to them if there was something I didn't get or it troubled me.

My reading capabilities catapulted ahead of the rest of my class. I was in the YA section when I was about nine. And you know what? I'm still loathe to leave it. I have tried adult books, and the only difference I've found is that a)they have the choice of foul language, and b)they almost always have a sex scene.

Those are not necessarily bad things, but often it's inserted clumsily into the story, and it often doesn't add to the writing, so I become bored. I think I'll be sticking to YA, on the whole, out of choice, despite age and everything.

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

Seconded-- I wish more "adult" writers approached the quality of the best YA writers-- *especially* adult fantasy writers.

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

I have tried adult books, and the only difference I've found is that a)they have the choice of foul language, and b)they almost always have a sex scene.

Most adult literature reads like a bad Zutara fanfic.

[earthstar-moon.livejournal.com]

Same here. I've been reading YA since I was 12 and I still read mostly YA novels. I haven't found many fantasy books in the adult section that I care for very much.

I think MWT response hit the nail on the head. Each kid is different and thus should be able to choose books they think they are ready for and make their own mistakes. Parents just have to make it clear that it's okay for them to make mistakes and to talk to them if there's something they don't understand or wish to talk about.

I don't like how some parents now a days won't bother talking with their kids and find out what they're reading/watching. Putting morals into the books/tv isn't the issue. Talking with your own kids about it will have more an effect.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

the only difference I've found is that a)they have the choice of foul language, and b)they almost always have a sex scene.

Those are not necessarily bad things, but often it's inserted clumsily into the story, and it often doesn't add to the writing, so I become bored. I think I'll be sticking to YA, on the whole, out of choice, despite age and everything.
I agree with this. I really don't like when those are stuck in a story just to make it more grown up, which is one of the things MWT was getting at, I think. If an author tries to put certain plot elements or character traits into a story to force it into edginess, you can tell and it can ruin the story.

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

Huh, I was just reading a review of MWT's work on a parent-recommendation site the other day, and the reviewer complained that they didn't like the cursing. It's interesting that this was a deliberate style choice, and really very clever. If someone's made uncomfortable by "Gods damn", they're not ready for The Thief (much less QoA). It's a really clever idea :-D And QT books have the best covers, bar none.
Kids can definitely censor themselves, too-- I always avoided books taking place on ships, because they consistently included content I was uncomfortable with.

[finding-further.livejournal.com]

Yes, very clever style choice. And, having read the books, I had noticed that the jacket covers and copy have major spoilers in them, so much so that I warned a friend to not look too closely at the cover of QoA or read the back flap until she was well into it! Now I understand how calculated it was.

Funny about the books on ships -- I had the opposite reaction. :)

[hapaxnym.livejournal.com]

Totally tangential, but is it Very Wrong that I now have the burning ambition to insert the word "poignant" into every future review of MWT's work?

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA NOT AT ALL

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

Because I have a divorced character in my book does not mean I advocate divorce. Or teenage pregnancy. Or child abuse. Or war. Or vampires eating people. I mean, seriously, I do not think vampires should eat people, even though they eat people in my books. Do I have to say that? Perhaps I do.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Lowest Common Denominator (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LowestCommonDenominator). Alternatively, Readers Are Morons (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ViewersAreMorons).

That's actually a really interesting read. I'm consistently baffled by the sect of parents who feel that their children need to be protected from horrible outside influences. Sure, okay, I can get that. But why should the people doing the protecting be everyone except for the parents? As a video gamer, I am so used to seeing that sort of attitude it makes me pity and lose faith in people.

Wait, sorry, children are innocent little lambs who will follow you if you offer them candy. Of course we should police what they read.

As soon as we start to preach or teach something, our readers shut us out.

Hi, Philip Pullman.

P.S., Megan, I will take Lecture 213-2.b, please. Where can I sign up?

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

P.S., Megan, I will take Lecture 213-2.b, please. Where can I sign up?
*Seconded!

[pendrecarc.livejournal.com]

Thank you--that was a great read!

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

I have to say I completely agree with Megan (who sounded almost like my mommy-I love you mommy)

did anyone else notice...megan said sex! haha okay I'm done trying to be immature, but seriously-this is the MWT who got away with writing a whole naked guard bath scene and only describing Gen's *muscular wrist* that's talent

I think that that's one of the *HUGE* differences between fics and actual YA books. Fics are sometimes well-they're either really good or a just terrible and filled with very random inappropriate subjects.
Have a read a book I didn't like? Sure. I have I read a book that's scared me for life? No. Have I read a fic that's scared me? Absolutely. People who write fics don't really think about morals/lessons as much or at all. Would I ever stop my future children from reading a harmless book? No. Would I stop them from reading random online fics. Well-if my kids got through computer child protective locks first-then we'll talk. haha

I also think that what we read (all the stories) impact and affect how we (readers) view everyday situations and the world around us. This gives authors a huge responsiblity but in the end it's their story to tell.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

this is the MWT who got away with writing a whole naked guard bath scene and only describing Gen's *muscular wrist* that's talent
But it doesn't stop the fangirls' imaginations, does it? *accusing stare*

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

A few related thoughts...

It's true that writers bring their worldview into their writing, whether they do so intentionally/obviously or not. I think the same thing goes for readers. One cannot help but perceive things in one's own light... and lighting can make such a difference! As a reader, I've seen themes in books that I'm pretty sure that author didn't consciously put there.

I personally prefer subtly in books, which is one of the reasons I like MWT's writing. She gives you plenty to think about... and by think about I mean contemplate, mull over, puzzle out, or come to your own conclusions... instead of just hitting you over the head with her meaning. She treats her readers like they're intelligent beings, which they are.

The level of "mature content" I'll accept in a book has a lot to do with context. Sometimes its presence is very important to the larger purpose of the book. But if it's there simply to give the book "an edge" or to make it "adult" or to feed the unhealthy hunger of thousands of readers willing to pay for the meal... thanks, but no.

The C. S. Lewis quote comes to mind: "Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves."

As for keeping an eye on what my kids read... well, that probably won't be hard, as I'll likely be interested in reading it myself!

[finding-further.livejournal.com]

Yes, I prefer subtlety in books, too. My favorite books are the ones where the theme or issue is presented more as an argument (characters presenting different possible views) rather than a hammer (only one "right way" presented.) This way, the reader gets to use her brain, her moral system, and her worldview to decide which approach is right for her.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

from one of the comments on the original blog post:
Sometimes reading books that DON'T match up with your morals is a GREAT way to re-evaluate what you believe

I have found this particularly true for myself. Issues that I would never have thought much about otherwise I've come across in books, which forces me to think about it and figure out where I stand. Sometimes I won't even know that I disagree with a certain viewpoint until I read something that seems to me to express the opposite. Sometimes where I stand is directly opposite of what the book may seem to be saying, but I don't think that means it's a bad book--it helped me to figure out what I think, which is a good thing. My parents have never really limited what I read (or actually paid much attention) so I have always determined for myself if I think a book is OK for me or not. This sometimes means I've read books that I KNOW my mom wouldn't let me read if she knew what was in them. I don't think this means I'm a Bad Kid, or that my parents are Bad Parents. They've trusted me to make my own decisions (in part because it would have been Extremely Difficult not to), and I have.

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

This is a great point. Sometimes that's one of the best things literature can do for us: making us see things differently, approaching issues in different ways. Reading books that don't always agree with our moral compasses on every tiny point can be a great way to mold us into discerning and intelligent readers.

One addition to the discussion in general that I'll stick in here (for no particular reason) is that it's good to remember the positive effect of reading in community. Reading gives personal pleasure, of course, but it also gives us a venue for common conversation. When we can talk about what we read (why we liked it, why we didn't, what made us uncomfortable and why, how we could/should/would react, how brilliant the author is, etc.), we're automatically becoming better readers and interpreters, and creating a space where issues like morality can come into play. This holds as true for parents and children as it does for communities like this one, in my opinion.

(That was a lot longer than I was expecting it to be.)

[gkchesterton1.livejournal.com]

My mother did not police every book I read, but she liked to read some every so often to know what I was interested in and there were major problems with what I read. The only book she ever told me I could not read was "Ruby in the Smoke" by Phillip Pullman. When I got older and moved out, I picked it up to see what it was about. I could not finish it because the author's preaching of his worldview was so blatant. I can appreciate other peoples worldviews and I tend to analise whatever I am reading or watching. I pick out flaws and inconsistencies and sometime things bother me, but when someone goes on a crusade, count me out. I am a very conservative Christian, but I read very few "Christian" books because they are insipid and narrow minded and their mamby-pampy version of Christianity makes me want to hit someone hard. I somewhat agree with Megan, but I will steer my children away from mediocre writing. If there are things I disagree with in the book, I would discuss it with them.

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

I am a very conservative Christian, but I read very few "Christian" books because they are insipid and narrow minded and their mamby-pampy version of Christianity makes me want to hit someone hard.
Oh, I completely agree with this. That's why I usually stay pretty far away from the "Christian Fiction" section in the bookstore. There is some good stuff out there, but I don't feel like weeding through the rest. Also, it's fun to go through and pick out pieces and anaylze, like you said, others' worldviews.

P.S. *high five for your username*

[finding-further.livejournal.com]

Wow!

*looks up at responses*

What an amazing community this is!!!

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I'm with finding_further. Shannon Hale has some great fans, but MWT's fans...well, the discussion here is amazing. I love you guys.

[finding-further.livejournal.com]

OOoooo. Incarceron. I just finished it recently. How do you like it so far?

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, yes, and YES! I am so glad to hear such intelligent conversation about a topic that often produces name-calling and pettiness.

One thing I absolutely adore about my parents is that they have always encouraged me to think for myself. They have given me a good background and good morals, but they have always stressed the importance of being able to take care of yourself in the world, where you may find yourself surrounded by either very intelligent people or total idiots, and it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between the two. I think reading all different types of literature is an excellent way to learn to think for yourself, by seeing the world from other perspectives and learning to never stop questioning what you are told is "true". Parents who can't stand the thought of their children reading something that might be disagreeable need to realize that exposure to life's inevitable unpleasantness is vital to helping their children mature.

Just my thoughts.

~toastisyummy

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I feel exactly the same. Consequences, too! It's astounding to me how many parents of kids 13, 14 years old are still stepping in to protect them from every unpleasant consequence, whether it's getting a bad grade for work not completed ("but we had SPORTS last night!") not making a team, dealing with issues with a teacher ("we just can't get ourselves out of bed in the morning!"), etc etc etc. I don't understand why they can't see that they're not doing their kids any favors by excusing their behavior or rescuing them time and again. Pet peeve of mine, obviously. But, as you say, that's how kids learn to deal with all those issues out in the real world, and learn to think for themselves.

I worked with a woman who used to call her 20-yr-old daughter's college professors to argue about grades. I kid you not.

[(Anonymous)]

20 years old and Mom still has to argue with the professors about grades? oh please...

I think the only book my Mom told me I couldn't read was "The Hunt for Red October" by Tom Clancy, but that's only because I was 9 and Tom Clancy's books are definitely not for 9 year olds (lots of swearing and all that). But for the most part, I was pretty much set loose in our local library's kid's section as soon as I could read.

~toastisyummy

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

haha, my mother tried to get me to read that book. I declined.

Ah yes, the library! I volunteered there as a tot, so I got my pick of any book. I really loved the biography section for some reason.

I think the only thing they ever actively kept me from reading were the Chobits comic books, and I am retroactively grateful for that*.

*Though I had already read the first volume, so their arguments of why I couldn't read the following volumes were kind of moot.

[pseudo_tsuga.livejournal.com]

Thanks for linking to the post! I like MWT's thoughts but I have to admit I like MT Anderson's more.