Shadow Princess

[traboule.livejournal.com]

Hi there. Part-time lurker coming out because I know that all of us have had, at least once, that kick-in-the-head moment where we're looking at something unrelated and think suddenly, "but that's just like a QT character!" I wanted to share this one, since I'm wondering if I'm the only person who sees it.

Anti-heroes are easy to find if you read the right books: all those troubled men stamping around and looking gloomy. Or wuthering, or something. A hero worth his salt should be able to get away with almost anything and still remain on the side of good. This is much less true of women (excluding for - I know - the exceptions of mid-Victorian sensation schemers, Faith, and anybody in a dress on HBO's Rome), and I've found I have to keep my eyes peeled to find anti-heroines. This is why I like Attolia so very much. She's both a woman who will eat you for breakfast, and the love of Gen's life, and I think her personality is one of the most interesting things in these books.

I have Attolia on the brain because I was sitting in Row G of a theatre watching a terrific production of Dangerous Liaisons and I thought - first - "heh heh, this is like two hours of listening to Attolia talk to the Mede Ambassador," a thought which ripened into, "gee, Mme. de Merteuil sounds a lot like Attolia." Then I felt bad.

More below the cut, since this is a bit long and I figure any time Dangerous Liaisons is under discussion, there should be some kind of adult content signpost. I certainly hope this doesn't get too explicit, but please do note that this is a play (and a novel) with grownup language and content.

 Dangerous Liaisons is about two congenital schemers - Merteuil and Valmont - and their attempts to get one over on each other (figuratively and, yes, literally) by ruining the lives of three other people who got stuck in their orbit. If you've seen Cruel Intentions, you know what this is about; I'm pretty sure the only thing in that movie that isn't in the original novel is Kathryn's coke habit. Nobody's very likable here. The good end unhappily, the bad unluckily, and everyone is going to get guillotined in about 8 years anyway. It's not the most cheerful thing ever written, but I do love it.

What I think is interesting here is not so much the hardened rake semi-reformed by love, which should be the main plot. I'm a lot more interested in the other two women - the ones who aren't interested in being virtuous. Here's what the Marquise de Merteuil has to say for herself (and disregard the scary and reptilian Valmont in the first minute or so...):

Now, Merteuil is nobody's idea of a nice person - though I doubt she's ever actually granched a rebellious baron - but to me this incredibly smart woman trapped very young in a world where no one takes her seriously sounds rather surprisingly similar to Attolia. It makes me wonder what Attolia would be like sans Gen, and appreciate him even more for marrying her and taking care of her - not that I don't appreciate Gen for his own impressive skills.

So I suppose this is the non-YA Attolia or something? Or maybe just one of those moments when you realize you should probably read something else and stop looking for parallels everywhere you go.

Comments

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Wow... She scares me. Deeply...

I do believe you have found yourself a Victorian (and more adult) Attolia.

I am also fascinated by female anti-heros. They are not as accepted in literature as male anti-heros, because I guess people are more weirded out by them. I wouldn't so much call this sexism, as the human expectation that woman are more gentle, more kind, more sensitive than men. When a woman is cruel, she is not simply insensitive. She fully understands what she is doing but goes through with it anyway.

When we compare that with a male anti-hero such as Artemis Fowl, we find that the audience is more comfortable with this character, because they assume he is just immature and insensitive. With guidance it is possible for him to learn not be this way. With women, people don't assume that as readily.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

Heh - yes, she's a force to be reckoned with. Very dangerous. Although (technically), she isn't Victorian; she was written in by a Frenchman in 1782, right before the Revolution.

I think you're right that people are more weirded out by women who can do bad things and stay good guys. There's something uncomfortable about that - maybe it's because we expect so many innocent female protagonists, or because, as you say, women are expected to be more gentle and sensitive. And even with heroes older than Artemis Fowl, there's a character-type of obnoxious hero available to men that's less available to women.

Hmm. Yes. Anyway, glad to know it isn't just me.

[themadpoker.livejournal.com]

Oh man, she sounds fascinating. I've always had a weakness for female anti-heroes and schemers. Interestingly, this doesn't always tend to work in the reverse? I suspect it's because I am naturally contrary and most media expects you to sympathize with the male anti-hero. Well, I don't want to! You like him already, what does he need me for? :l

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

That's still sexism, bb.

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

I'm amused by the term "good" being applied to anyone in Rome, considering it's got moral ambiguity up the wazoo. There's so much double-crossing going on that about the only firmly "good" women are Niobe and Eirene, if only because they weren't out to screw anyone else over. And even then, they're more grey than white.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Good points. A certain hardness is more acceptable in men, too. "Real" men (and I mean that in an outdated, very stereotyped way) are tough and hard. We still like that in our movie action heroes, right? There's a place there for kick-butt women, too, but not so much in real life.

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

Agreed. People hold female heroes and anti-heroes to nigh-impossible standards. They can't be too powerful in their own right, or they're a Mary-Sue. They can't be too weak or people complain they're annoying and useless. They can't be too cruel, too kind, too patient, too reckless. If it's not a PERFECT BLEND, then they suck.

>.

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

Ooh, this looks wonderful. I am absolutely going to look it up. You're right, she does seem very Attolia-ish.

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

Which actually makes me wonder--if this fandom got big and went the traditional way with fans tearing the female characters apart, who would they support: Helen, who can fight, but is a bit of a Faux Action Girl, or Irene, who is highly ruthless and manipulative, but knows nothing really about swordcraft besides "stab with the pointy end"?

[octopirock.livejournal.com]

Well, that's certainly going on my reading list. She looks fabulously spiny.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

They'd slash Gen and Sophos, with Sophos always being submissive, and Helen and Irene would die horrible and convenient deaths repeatedly, while people talked about how much they hated those two in the comments.

I might be jaded, though.

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

Nah, they totally would. But if they like one of the women, they might simply break up her marriage and hook her up with someone else instead of killing them off conveniently.

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure Irene would become a very controversial character, and Snacky's Law would definitely come into play

[traboule.livejournal.com]

For the win.

What a gloomy AU future. I think you're right, though. Fortunately the Sounis Repropbates are not Potter ficcers.

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

Tennyoson said at some point that women at their best are better than any man, but when they go bad they're much worse than any man. I love Tennyson, but his poetry is horribly sexist...unfortunately a lot of our culture seems to support that paradigm. I vaguely remember the heroine from the childrens novel Anna of Byzantium being Attolia-esque, though a shade less sympathetic.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Then it would end up like this:

Gen/Sophos
Helen/Costis
Irene/Death

with not a little hurt/comfort along the way. Though Helen and Costis would probably be all forbidden love! this cannot be! it stabs at me! rather than the usual hurt/comfort tropes.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Fortunately the Sounis Repropbates are not Potter ficcers.

I have been grateful for this on more than one occasion. Like every time a post goes up in this comm.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

Niobe got killed off too soon to do anything really horrible - although saying that makes me a little worried about how fast I'm so ready to forgive her for her illegitimate child. Eirene is just a good person, though.

I love Vorena, btw. It's awful, but I do.

OH - and I don't know if you know this, but the original original DL starred Servilia as Mme. de Merteuil. I bet it was delicious. Here's a little TV spot about it...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIkTue5N9WE&feature=related

[traboule.livejournal.com]

Aww. But I love a good anti-hero (but not Heathcliff; I think Heathcliff is just a mess).

Frankly, I think it depends on the anti-hero. I think of anti-heroes as being specifically the characters you can't help loving, but who do things that make you very uncomfortable. There are bad-tempered or enigmatic men who can be heroes without being "anti" as such (say, like, Ramses Emerson), and then there are people like Merteuil and Valmont, or Francis Crawford. You're supposed to like Mr. Darcy even though he's rude; you like Sweeney Todd through sheer force of personality.

I do take your point, though ;) Anti-heroes are getting more and more acceptable, bu the woman are a lot more interesting. Although I wonder if we're going to see an increase in anti-heroines when all the Larsson knock-offs come out in a year or two.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

I forgot about Anna of Byzantium! She's really cool and, yes, I bet she could give Attolia a run for her money.

Tennyson is a mess. But what's interesting is that his very sexist and sentimentalized writing is roughly contemporary with some of the nastiest and most fun anti-heroines I know of. Vanity Fair is an amazing book and Becky Sharpe is...well, something special, anyway.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

Heh. I think spiny is the perfect word for it - or, in view of your awesome icon - strong-minded. I haven't read the book yet, but it's on my list...very twisted, very not-nice. But, I hope, fun in it's own awful way.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

I think she's Attolia's evil(er) twin. If Attolia had married the Ambassador, she would have ended up on the Continent acting like Mme. de Merteuil.

That's my theory.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

I think the kick-butt women are most comfortable in YA fantasy (thank you, Tamora Pierce), which is another reason why Attolia is so unusual: she's in something that might get classed as YA fantasy but she's definitely not kick-butt. She's just VERY smart.

I'm actually enjoying the unchallenged ascendancy of Lisbeth Salander. I guess the novelty of such an unfeminine woman in a mainstream novel must be completely irresistible to the book-buying pubic. Or something.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

If we're going to to talk Sweeney Todd, what about Mrs. Lovett? She is more bad than he is, really, since she doesn't have his revenge-for-great-wrongs agenda. Sort of likable anyway for her cheerfulness. And yet she's nothing like Attolia.

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

They'd go with Helen. Irene is too morally gray.