Another layer

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

So, we were discussing the infamous "take my wine cup" scene from KoA awhile back and I was thinking about it some more this morning. I came to the sudden realization that there's another metaphorical level too. Basically that scene and the contrast with what happened to Attolia's first husband is a nice little metaphor for the differences between her first and second marriages.

Attolia's first husband marries her against her will and attempts to take her sovereignty as a ruler away from her, just like he takes her food and drink when his own is gone. I don't think it's overstating to say that Attolia hates him on both the personal and political level, so she deals with him by using his greedy desire against him--poisoning him. His grabbing and her, um, reaction symbolize the complete dysfunction of their marriage. (Which lasts for what, a day?)

Now, with Gen it's a bit different. She offers him the cup, not as a warning (although that might be how it seems--I'll get to that in a second), but as a way to lighten his tension and so on. Likewise, by this point she has offered him the sovereignty of the country, despite the kidnapping. In the end she has chosen him--her power remains intact and she is able to offer the wine cup/country.

From the outside Gen and Attolia's first husband seem like they're trying to do the same thing--marry Attolia against her will and get control of the country. So the court might easily interpret Attolia's offering her wine cup to Gen as a threat: you watch it or you'll get what he got. But because the inner circumstances are so different, Attolia's real motive for offering Gen the cup is an expression of the fact that she cares about him. Both their marriage and the wine cup baffle the onlookers who don't understand the true complexities of their relationship, but both are actually rooted in a genuine understanding and love. The first wine cup incident and the first marriage, on the other hand, are quite clearly rooted in greed, dysfunction, and hate.

Opinions, thoughts, disagreements?

Comments

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

Wow. Thanks for noticing this.

That cup is rather symbolic of the power to rule the country. There is that difference between Attolia's first husband who attempted to grab it away from her and Gen, who she offered it to when he didn't want it. Which makes his response rather symbolic as well. "No fear of that, my dear one...I see my cup is full as well."

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Do you think, then, that the cup could be symbolic the same way in ACoK?

The reason I ask is that cups have appeared a lot over the course of the series, like hairpins, inkpots, and earrings. There's the cup that Gen stared into in Eddis after he lost his hand and noticed that the centaurs had "Two hands," which I guess is a symbol for his depression (and segues nicely into his small drinking binge). There's this cup, in KoA.

Then there's the cup Gen smashes in ACoK when he can't get Sophos to treat him as a friend and can't bring himself to do the same. If that one is also symbolic of a country, or a kind of power equality, it might represent Sounis---a country which is up for grabs at the moment---and, specifically, Gen's anger at having to take its sovereignty away from Sophos, thus disrupting the balance of power in their relationship. Which is a little dysfunctional at that point in the book.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I hadn't actually thought about the symbolism of cups in general past this scene. I thought of the cup sort of as a prop in one of Gen and Irene's typical "we're totally talking about something different than what everyone else thinks we're talking about" conversations. It works as a symbol of the power to rule here because it is contrasting Irene's two marriages (if you can call the first one a marriage when it didn't last through the reception) and her role in both.

The same symbolism carrying through to the next book is an interesting idea. Although if this is the case I would not like to think what the symbolism of Gen deliberately dropping that cup at the end of ACoK might mean.

[creative-lefty2.livejournal.com]

This is making me think of the gold cups Costis promises Phila is the King is safe. Once again, the cups are representing the country, in a way. This is a major turning point for Costis because this is where he actually really starts to accept Eugenedies as King and by promising those cups for his safety, it's kind of like he's offering Gen his country and loyalty.

Huh.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

This is an excellent idea, and I SEE IT.

Thinking about the medean cups Melheret and Sophos drink from in ACoK ... Akretenesh seems to be insinuating, when he talks about how they're made by the artisans in his empire, that Sounisian/"barbarian" artistry is inadequate. If you go with the metaphor thing, it could be espressing how, in his stay (and all the other ambassadors') Melheret is brining his OWN culture and techniques to our country trio, not adapting or appreciating what they have there already."Remchik is not for sipping, we say in my home. It's flavor comes in the swallow." He wants to gulp their country.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

Excellent point. Now I am feeling an urgent need to reread all the books to look for mentions of cups and figure in their significance.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Ack, wow, brilliant-but-mind-bending. I had not thought of it all like this yet!

But even with the added cup = country/rule layer of meaning, I do not really understand why Gen laughs the way he does. What about this whole thing could be making him happy?

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I think Gen laughs the way he does because he is trying to recover his mask. He was probably a little startled and genuinely amused by what she said (in a morbid kind of way). They seem to have a running joke about the poisoning thing as Gen says later to Phresine something along the lines of "My wife and I agree only my wine is to be poisoned." Had they been alone he probably would have reacted more subtly amused but she jolted him into remembering where he was and what he was about so he used the opportunity to make himself look foolish and stupid in front of the court so they would forget that for a few seconds there he was scaring the daylights out of them.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

As someone has mentioned before, I think, or probably several people, Attolia's sense of humor is SCARY. The whole "Don't be ridiculous," about having two knives thing in ACoK...

I like your ideas.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

Attolia does have a scary sense of humor, but so does Gen. Or maybe scary isn't the right word. Macabre maybe??? And as scary as Attolia is overall I actually think Gen is scarier, particularly as he is so good at hiding how dangerous he is.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

A lot of the humor in these books is morbid (although there's plenty that isn't, too)---who's going to assassinate whom in their sleep, whether or not the food is poisoned, etc. As far as Attolia and Gen are concerned, I think one of the reasons they might both make such grim jokes is that a lot of the stuff they joke about is real, or could easily become real, or was real to them at one point. That's what makes it humorous and it's also what makes it grim. I think there might be a little bit of psychological relief in joking about the things you actually truly fear.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. I've always felt the same way.

It's very common to use humor as a sort of psychological therapy. I do it. Everyone I know does it. It's actually more true to human nature than going hard emo about every thing that's difficult/serious in your life. Laughter doeth good like a medicine, and snarks/humor is essential to keeping yourself sane in stressful situations.

Some may consider this to be a form of denial, or an outlet for bitterness, thus the term sardonic. Either way, I think people who are better at handling difficulties often joke about matters in a slightly morbid manner in order lessen feelings of extremeness of the issues they are dealing with. If you can calm down, you are often more capable of handling them to.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

I have nothing to add, beyond you guys are very smart.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I think he laughed like that partly in a "I can't believe you said that in front of everyone!" way.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that might be true. It is a bit out of character for Attolia--except that because it's deliberate and not a slip it's very much in character.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

This is really smart - it adds a new layer to that whole scene.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Yes! Brilliant.

This has sort of occurred to me in a hazy, unformed, back-brain kind of way, but it's not until you put it in this very articulate essay that I even realized it. I totally agree.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

in a hazy, unformed, back-brain kind of way

So many things occur to me like that!

Thank you. (Oh, and love that user pic! And SRB's summary.)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I think I'd pondered this before too, then forgot. My wee brain struggles to keep up with MWT's natural brilliance! Thanks for sharing!

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! And I know--I love how many times we've collectively come to these stunning realizations about how much stuff she packs into these books.

[earthstar-moon.livejournal.com]

This is what I love about Turner's writing, a small scene can mean so many things. (Which is why I'm convinced the sand in the food is suppose to be meaning something else we just don't know yet.)

Anyway, I would agree with this 100%. I think you hit the nail on the head. ^_^

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I can't wait to find out more about "Sandy" and why MWT's been prepping us for this bit of unexplored plot over the past two books! I'm ready to be astounded!

[earthstar-moon.livejournal.com]

I have a theory that the next book will be told from "Sandy's" point of view. Think about it? It would explain why he/she has been mentioned in every book since the second one. I can't wait to see the reason behind it.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

So, when you said "Sandy," at first I thought you meant the literal sand and my mind kind of boggled.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

EXCERPT FROM THE NEXT BOOK:
"I hate it when the king chews on me."

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Awesomely articulate! This did occur to me before, but never so well phrased. Great observation.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

I agree with you and all y'all. Excellent. :)

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Yaay!

[mortalasabee.livejournal.com]

Every time someone delves into a scene like this, picking apart the layers of meaning, you all make me want to go back to school and study literature.

Can I write my thesis on mwt?

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

My senior year of college I wrote a second thesis as an independent project and I was SO CLOSE to doing it on MWT, only I couldn't quite get the topic to work properly. Sad.

[wanderingdreamr.livejournal.com]

That's about what I thought of the scene; I always interpreted it as "I trust you no matter what my court thinks and I'm the one you REALLY need to look out for." Although I will admit, some of the deeper symbolism in the earlier posts works better, especially when taking Gen's reply into consideration.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I'm late to this post, but I reread this part of KoA last night, and I think I see it as more than a joke - although it definitely was one.

First of all, there's Ornon's thoughts framing the scene - where he sees that Eugenides is "angry and pleased to be so", and looks at the queen because he didn't know where else to look. After the incident, he looks at the queen again, and bows his head in respect because "she'd proved her strength".

So there's more than just a joke there - Attolia knew that her court needed to have respect for one of its rulers. She wanted Gen to be king, but as long as he kept refusing, she needed to keep the power. She might have also needed to make a show of Attolian strength, as Eugenides's comments reminded everyone that he was a foreigner.

But MWT says it was a joke of sorts a page later, after the musicians start playing the Eddisian tune that Attolia assumes Gen can't dance to. She says, "Him, I will have flayed" and then feels Gen relax. Then comes "Her statement had been less calculated than her offer of wine, but it had the same effect, easing the strain she knew he felt."

Either he was upset about his cousins - that line about them seeing their dead, and his cousins who were past love and hate - or he was sick of being king, and assumed what Ornon called his Thief face to deal with the embarrassment from the undersecretary. We know it wasn't a threat because we know she loves him, and he knows it as well, and maybe he laughs because he pities the fool who underestimated her, or because she knows he would never do it, so it's his appreciation of her ironic sense of humor - or because he thinks it's funny that she needs to assert her strength despite the fact that she wants him to assert his as king.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Beth, you = <3-<3-<3.

Only QT can have this much subtle meaning packed into one... what? five page scene.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Aww, thank you :) And yes, I know. I was rereading QoA and there's so MUCH there that I notice every time I reread.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

because he pities the fool who underestimated her

I like this.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Thanks :)

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Except that now I keep picturing Attolia saying, "I pity the fool!" and it makes me giggle.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

LOL - and you know she would say it in all seriousness. And probably be slightly scary while she does.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, definitely more than a joke! I love this scene--it has so many different complex layers and I think it's amazing how they all work together. That is, it's not that one is right and one is wrong--they're all right even though they're on so many different levels.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, if it is a metaphorical offering of her country, then Eugenides so typically laughs it off instead of accepting or declining. Gotta love the detail in that.

~Sommerrev