Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

Hehe, I like this comment.

(And I haven't ever really noticed Christian symbolism, either, but I think it's probably for the reasons discussed in a few places below: that the religious ideas evoked in the series are more general, about religion and faith themselves, than specific to one practice or another. Making allusions to Christianity in particular might detract from that more than add to it, I think, since what you end up with in the QT series, using this fictional pantheistic religion rather than a real-life one, is an exploration of basic human reactions to concepts like fate, moral grayness, and free will or the absence thereof. ...sorry for the long post script.)

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elvenjaneite.livejournal.com

Mmm, I don't think of symbolism necessarily, but I think that, as a Christian reader, there are various things that I've connected with my faith. The quote in my user pic is one of them.

I agree that Gen isn't Jesus, though at the same time there are some interesting points to make about mercy vs. justice and the way those might connect.

I know there was a longer article someone wrote about reading these books as a Christian reader which might be interesting for you, but for the life of me I can't remember who it was or where it was published!

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Another quote I've appreciated in connection with my own Christian faith is uttered by Gen when he's balancing on the rooftop: "...what may look completely stupid to you is merely a demonstration of my faith."

There's another one... Gen says something about not calling on the gods unless you're prepared for them to answer. Always liked that one!

I like how this series ponders the mercy vs. justice question too.

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Yes! And that bit where he prays "O my god, if you will not save me, make me less afraid" just ended me. It may be the closest thing in the series to a Gethsemane moment, though I doubt MWT intended it that way.

I'll be interested to see what direction the series takes after the events of ACoK, with regard to the mercy vs. justice question. It almost seems like we're heading in the wrong direction, but I don't believe that's the end game.

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That's another great one.

There's a part where Attolia basically says she believes in the gods, but refuses to worship them (again, sorry for not having the direct quote). This always gives me chills because I perceive it as anger on her part... for the way the gods have handled her and particularly Gen. Interesting how he seems to have accepted it while she remains upset on his behalf.

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jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com

Because I believe but I do not choose to worship.

most powerful line in the series y/y/y/y
I still get chills every time I read it.

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Oh gosh yes. I have to admit, I'm approaching this series from a pretty nonreligious point of view, but that line is still resonant. It carries meaning on so many levels, and on each of those it cuts right to the heart of the difference between simple belief and actual faith. Attolia believes in the gods because she has proof of them from personal experience, but she doesn't have faith in their goodness or their worthiness of her respect. Which is really the entire point of religious faith in the first place. Why bother believing if you're only going to believe that evil exists, but not a balancing form of good? And then, of course, Gen teaches her to trust that such goodness does exist, but he's only able to do so because he faces this whole huge question of faith for himself.

So, in summary, yes, very possibly the best line of the series.

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thnidu.livejournal.com

But (as you both seem to recognize) there are many faiths and many views of divinity, and while all of these quotes and moments relate to faith to divinity there's nothing specifically Christian in them.

I tend to notice such things in my reading (see icon), though they don't necessarily bother me unless they're obtrusive (e.g., Narnia, sigh).

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Or "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" I always knew that reminded me of something, but couldn't remember what, probably because I was too busy being slayed by it. Oh, Gen!

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Um, probably should have done that one in English: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

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styromgalleries.livejournal.com

And that bit where he prays "O my god, if you will not save me, make me less afraid" just ended me.
I don't think I've ever thought to apply this one. Hm...yeah. That's great. For any person of faith.

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elle-winters.livejournal.com

Agreed!

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elvenjaneite.livejournal.com

Found the article! You can read it here (http://www.christandpopculture.com/featured/novel-theophany-megan-whalen-turner%E2%80%99s-fictional-pantheon/).

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I hadn't read that article before! Thanks for sharing it.

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As a Christian who's spent most of my life studying the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation -- I can think of precious few things in MWT's books that could be interpreted as Christian symbolism without seriously stretching the point, so no, you haven't missed anything in that respect.

However, that being said, I found many of the observations made by various MWT characters about the nature of the gods' involvement in human affairs, and the way man relates to the gods, really resonated with what I know of the God described in the Bible and my own experience of relating to Him. So while there is nothing Christian about MWT's books on any allegorical or symbolic level, I found them surprisingly meaningful and truthful* in the way they depict the relationship between humanity and the divine.

--
* Just for one semi-humorous example -- God's answer to the reluctant and resentful prophet Jonah at the end of the book that bears his name, for instance, is remarkably similar to "Stop whining." :)

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elvenjaneite.livejournal.com

Thank you for saying eloquently and coherently what I was trying to.

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I liked your comment very much too! I just didn't see it until after I posted mine. :)

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thnidu.livejournal.com

*THAT!*

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brandy-painter.livejournal.com

Jeremiah has come to my mind too when thinking of Gen. Prophet? Me? NOOOOO!!! Do not want that job. Pleas, anyone but me. For Gen its the same only King.

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Oh, yes! That's another good parallel too.

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sandtree.livejournal.com

I'll chime in as another Christian reader who doesn't see any particularly Christian symbolism in the books. Gen is definitely NOT Jesus. ;) Lots of Greek mythology, though!

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Yeah, I see mostly Greek mythology.

Though somebody made the Jeremiah/Gen connection and that put me in mind of Moses/Sophos... it's a stretch, but Moses doubted God's decision to put him in a role of authority, as he was "slow of speech" (i.e. not a natural leader)... and Moses led his people out of Egypt/Sophos is leading the people of Eddis away from the exploding mountain... and yes, this parallel is falling apart as I type. Hm.

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Well, it's better than "[Ornon's] sheep go to heaven, goat[feet] go to hell."

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*sporfles*

BAA!

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:) Oh, thank goodness someone understood that!

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styromgalleries.livejournal.com

However, that being said, I found many of the observations made by various MWT characters about the nature of the gods' involvement in human affairs, and the way man relates to the gods, really resonated with what I know of the God described in the Bible and my own experience of relating to Him. So while there is nothing Christian about MWT's books on any allegorical or symbolic level, I found them surprisingly meaningful and truthful* in the way they depict the relationship between humanity and the divine.
THIS THIS THIS!!

I was actually just trying to remember the quote in your icon as one that's always really stuck with me (I say stuck with me, and yet I was trying to remember it *snort*). I don't know that it would always hold true, because I would say (the way I see it), God definitely does direct some people in a very specific way, but I also believe strongly in free will, so I think the sentiment expressed in Helen's words sort of illustrates that balance in a very eloquent way.

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I found them surprisingly meaningful and truthful* in the way they depict the relationship between humanity and the divine.

Ditto. And well said!

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reader-marie.livejournal.com

Thanks for this lovely articulation of how these books relate meaningfully and truthfully to issues of faith. I'm another Christian reader who finds these books meaningful in the way they speak about faith and life.

In particular, QoA resonates with the concept of divine Providence--the idea that no matter what happens to us, it will work for "the good of those who are being saved." That doesn't mean Gen has to be happy about it, but he does, I think, come to accept that he's part of a larger plan. (I know this has been said before.)

(Somewhere I've written down a bunch of other points about Christianity and these books...but I can't find them now.)

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Thank you, Marie! The best thing about this topic for me has been watching all the fellow Christians come out of the woodwork. :D

And I agree entirely with your point about Providence. I think the books, and Gen's life in particular, illustrate that very well. It also makes me think about Mordecai's words to Esther, "And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?” Eddis certainly knows the truth of that, when she tells Sophos about the impending destruction of her country.

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brandy-painter.livejournal.com

I'm another one who doesn't see any specific Christian symbolism, but as a Christian reader sees a lot of parallels to my own faith and walk with God.

I wrote some of it out in a post once when I couldn't stop thinking about the books while reading Luther's The Bondage of the Will.

It's here if you're interested:
http://brandy-painter.livejournal.com/7003.html#cutid1

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Well, I don't think there are any on-purpose Christian references. I think the points with regards to religion and faith in these books are much more general. That said, there are certain things that do remind me of what authors tend to do when they're trying to evoke Christianity, and maybe thinking about them in terms of QT books will give you a better grounding for identifying them in general literature, where they do like to pop up.

But I am repeating that I do not think any of these things were intentional, and a lot are not exclusively Christian.

* Three
... is a big number in Christianity. You could think of Eddis, Sounis, and Attolia like a three-in-one trinity.

*Three days' death
... also a big one, and it did strike me that when Eugenides woke up after his interview with the gods at the end of QoA, not only was he told he'd been out three days, but he echoed the number and had it repeated back to him.

*The ruler/chosen one sacrificing himself for his people
... except, of course, he's not supposed to constantly complain about it

*The Call to disciples
... Gen's line to Costis along the lines of, "Will you serve me and my god? ... Then come out knowing you will never die of a fall unless the god himself drops you," has a bit of the ring of when Jesus met some fishermen on the beach and told them, "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."

* "Father, forgive them. They know not what they do."
... was totally how Gen's defense of Attolia struck me in QoA until I figured out he was in love with her. And is what Jesus said regarding the people crucifying him.

*Floods and Baptism
... like when the Aracthus overflows in The Thief and Gen washes up afterward. Floods can recall God's punishing the world for its evils, and the aftermath a fresh start. People being doused in water can be seen as experiencing baptisms, being spiritually wiped clean or reborn. In all honesty, that is only occurring to me now that I am looking for Christian symbolism.

Okay, and now I am starting to think of completely inappropriate links on purpose just to give you stuff to make Christian imagery stick in your mind. So I will stop that.

Again: none of those examples fit perfectly. I'm not trying to say anything by them, just give you a frame of reference that might be more interesting to you than a religion that isn't yours.

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mortalasabee.livejournal.com

What an interesting thread.

I was talking to someone recently who called Gen a Jacob figure because he is struggling with the gods.

Whenever I read Gen's line about the "demonstration of my faith" I always think of the biblical passage "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."

I don't have any deeper insights right now, but that's my half a cent.

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crazededdisian.livejournal.com

Ooh! Jacob is clever. I think Jacob is the best of my favorite Gen-nish guys I can think of.
For those who don't know, let me summarize (just!) one of the parts in Jacob's life. He and his family were traveling, and as soon as he'd gotten his family over a bridge, he started wrestling with a man. Now Jacob was a pretty tough guy, because he held his own against the man, who later turned out to be God.
The "man," finding that Jacob was prevailing, touched Jacob's thigh, putting it out of joint. Jacob would limp for the rest of his life. But it didn't stop him wrestling.
Dawn dawned, and the man said, "Let me go." Jacob said, "Not unless you bless me." The man commented on how "as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."
Jacob then asks the man his name, and the man says, "Why do you ask that?" and blesses him.
Jacob says, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
You guys can draw your own conclusions, but just reading this story makes me go SQEEEE! Sorry about the length, CE shall go back to her shadows now.

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ballerina-222.livejournal.com

I don't have anything else to contribute to this discussion, as the above people have been very eloquent and have said many of the things I was thinking. But I do find it interesting to see how many other Christians are in this community. That's not really something I'd expect from a random grouping of people on the internet. But it's cool!

I hope that what these other people have said helps with the whole metaphors and imagery stuff. It can be really hard to catch sometimes, especially if you're not familiar with the religion the author is trying to emulate.

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I was just thinking the same thing. Apparently there's something about MWT's books that appeals to Christians despite the polytheistic framework... but considering the way she handles moral issues and the recurring themes of mercy vs. justice and the temptation to become the thing one's fighting against, perhaps that isn't so surprising at all.

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ballerina-222.livejournal.com

Yes, exactly. Haha I've actually introduced it to a few of my friends, and they've all been Christians. I think the article touches on this a little, but I think people find they can relate to Gen's devotion to his god.

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About three quarters of all Americans and even more Canadians identify as Christian, so I'd expect an equal representation among fans.

I for one more admire than relate to Gen's devotion to his god. Maybe envy.

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puppeteergirl.livejournal.com

No, there really aren't any Christian references in the Thief series that I've noticed. There are good "teaching moments" for those of us who are christian. For instance,

*SPOILERS*

The plot of QoA is a great example of how trusting God works. Sure, terrible things happen to people, but I believe that God has a greater plan and that He can turn all things to good.

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