Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

2. He broke their trust in him, so he's useless as a spy because they can't trust him anymore. But he is still loyal to them, so he better serves them as a friend.

3. Gen was being cool/cold because that's how he thought to solve the problem between the Mede and Sounis, and he used his cold front on Sophos too because he felt that he was stealing his country and Sophos wouldn't want to be his friend anyway. Think about when we first find out Sophos is talking to Sophos's asks if Gen wants his forgiveness and Eddis thinks something along the lines of 'he doesn't even expect Sophos to forgive him. ever' and then Sophos does. He's got a big heart, and Gen doesn't feel like he's deserving of Sophos's forgiveness.
So the cold front is a part of his scheme as well as his personal feelings about the situation.

4. Again this is Eddis and Gen both feeling guilty and expressing doubts about Sounis. Eddis asks "will he forgive us" because they are USING Sounis.
Gen points out that he's the one "stealing" Sounis's country, so he may forgive Eddis, but can Sophos really forgive him? And then Eddis points out that she's not helping them keep Sounis (see #5 below) because that's not an option for them.
The "you sent me to Attolia" I think is sort of a "we do what we have to do" and I think also "I forgave you for it"

5. Is something that we've talked about for a while, I think that it says somewhere that Sophos, had he more confidence in himself and his people could have retaken his country without Gen/Eddis's help. But of course, if this WAS an option Eddis/Attolis did not help Sophos find it because they have...alterior motives (Eddis's people need a new country and Attolia need the countries to unite against a bigger threat, the Mede).

Hope that helps!! Great questions :-D

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(1) Because he's frustrated. He wants to be a friend to Sophos, but he can't because he's the king of Attolia and Sophos in the king of Sounis. Little does Sophos know it, but Gen is just as frustrated with his behavior towards Sophos as Sophos is. Even so, Gen feels he needs to act this way in order to make it clear to Sophos that he is not his friend, even though he actually is.

(2) It's more the emotional and mental damages they are concerned about rather then the physical ones. Torture has a lot of long term phycological consequences. Gen is an exception in his strength, and he wasn't tortured for an extended period of time. Not to mention, after having gone through it himself, I don't see Relius observing any more torture sessions when prisoners are being pressed for information, as he would need to as secretary. And as Elle said, Relius's trust in his queen has been broken, even if he does remain loyal to her.

(3) What Elle said. <3

(4) This is all about forgiveness and understanding. Gen is telling Helen that Sophos will not hold her accountable for the trouble he'll have in winning his country just as Gen does not hold her accountable for the loss of his hand.

(5) She certainly didn't offer him just Eddis's help, nor did she advise him on how to use his resources in a manner in which he wouldn't be as dependent on Attolia. Nor did they offer him the option of a peace treaty with military support. They said, pledge us your country and your loyalty and then we'll talk.

(6) Not naivete. Faith. Sophos has faith in his friends as well as the gods. In order to drive out the Mede, reinforcements had to be there, so there were. Simple as that. Wonder why Gen thinks he's crazy? Of course, Gen is one to talk.

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<3 <3

Yup

and (6) I think explains why Sophos is very much his own character and while many people believe that he is not "full of surprises like Gen" his ability to forgive, to move forward, to hold on to friendships and love he believes in, is a surprise to both Eddis and Gen :-)

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:D

I love Sophos. He reminds me of some of the best qualities of Costis, while still having his own cute, little quirks. What we really see Sophos overcoming in Conspiracy is his tendency to hero-worhship others and not see the true value in himself. This is something that is introduced in TT, "he might as well build an altar and ask Ambiades to stand on it." <--Not Verbatim. Sophos grows up in this book and comes to understand that everyone has flaws and weaknesses that are not all that different from his own.

Oh, and Eli... I'm still waiting on my additional feedback. Tehee... And did you watch the DW Children in Need special I linked you to? Also, how is lucky number seven being sorted out?

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Oh I'm saving the video for after these two weeks of exams! Also, I wanted to post on lucky #7...*searches of a space in time*
I have four exams between monday and tuesday but I'll be done with some time on weds/thrusday!

Don't worry Lady Jane, I haven't forgot!! And I still have point out my favorite lines on your fic! :D

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*talking to Eddis, Sophos's asks

srry, I'm sooo scatter today!

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It's only 8 minutes, so you can watch it as a study break! And here's the one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7boeBf5pbQ) for season three. Guest starring the fifth doctor!

Also, weird things you find out when one decides to stalk actors on the internet. David Tennant and the actress who played Madame de Pampadour in Girl in the Fireplace were, interestingly enough, dating before and after that episode (that would explains why he looks like he's in love with her).

Secondly, the actress who played Jenny, Georgia Moffett, in season 4 is the daughter of Peter Davison, the actor who played the Fifth Doctor in the original series. She and David Tennant are engaged and due to be married next year. So... The Tenth Doctor is going to be the son-in-law of the Fifth Doctor. Now there's your timey-whimey stuff. And just to add another layer, Georgia Moffett originally auditioned for the role of Rose!

*is now done with her funny story*

After exams! See you then.

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omg! you stalker!! hahaha I love this triva, I did actually know about this (because I, too, am a doctor who stalker =P) Except the about the dating the girl in the fireplace! He DID look soo in love with her!

And I didn't know she auditioned for Rose! I loved Billy for Rose though...and wasn't she "The Doctor's Daughter?"

*is mind boogled*

Also I posted, just for youuu =P

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What? I was justing checking his Wiki article to browse his filmography, and I may have taken a look at the rest of the article... and some links... What? Can you blame me? It's David Tennant!

Oh, I love Billie Piper as Rose. She was awesome. And yes, Georgia Moffett played Jenny, the Doctor's daughter.

Ow... *goes to look*

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i dont understand why gen had to ruthlessly take sophos's country/eddis had to manipulate him. like you said,

They said, pledge us your country and your loyalty and then we'll talk.

being the magus's apprentice, sophos must know very well that eddis, attolia and sounis had to be united to stand against the mede. and he is gen's loyal, faithful friend, so if gen needed sounis and attolia to be allies against the mede, i dont see sophos refusing (as sounis cant stand alone against the mede either). also, sophos talked about a marriage proposal to eddis in a letter before he was kidnapped, so he would have married eddis either way. then eddis could have told him about the mountain exploding and her need to relocate her people. again, i think sophos would have been understanding and cooperative. why did they have to manipulate him to do things he would have done on his own?

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how was being cold solving the problem between sounis and the mede? wouldnt it work better if the mede thought that attolis and sounis were friends who couldnt be pitted against each other? if sophos was confident of attolis's friendship, i can see why fooling the mede might be a good idea, but sophos himself was wondering what was going on. attolia said that gen's behaviour was pushing sophos into the mede's arms and it actually might have in slightly different circumstances (eg if sophos was more inclined to his father's views).

great insights! and thanks. the questions seem stupid to me, like i should be able to figure them out on my own? i do sometimes, but i like hearing what you guys think.

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well, former apprentice/ currently having the magus as his adviser

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Oh, he didn't have to, that's why Gen was being foolish. The thing is, Gen wasn't talking about Attolia and Sounis simply becoming allies. Sophos actually pledged his country to Attolia and made himself an underling to Gen and Irene. This is much more permanent then an alliance or a peace treaty and would insure some stability between the countries even if something were to happen to Sophos, because breaking such a treaty would be considered an act of war.

Gen knows that Sophos is on his side, yet he knows having Sounis pledged to the Attolian crown is something that is needed. He feels like this is a betrayal, because in a way he is "stealing" Sophos country and taking advantage if his weakened state, which essentially he is. Gen sees Sophos's compliancy as naivety and his loyalty as failing to understanding what he is truly giving away. Gen feels like their friendship is blinding Sophos to the truth, which in a way it sort of did...

Something you gotta remember about royalty is that they are considered to be the physical embodiment of the will of the people. Gen must, no matter what he wants for Sophos, do what is best for Attolia as their king. Sophos likewise for his country, and Helen for hers. A country bowing its head to another and offering itself to another crown is all kinds of humiliating and horrible. Just think about how you would feel if your country suddenly became subject to another. By manipulating him, Gen felt like he was giving Sophos a "fair" fight or at the very least, not using his friendship to control him.

I know this is harder to understand if you don't have more historical background, but I hope that helps. Feel free to ask more questions. :)

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tiegirl.livejournal.com

Oh no. These questions are not stupid. They are insightful. I love the questions you are bringing and the discussions they are engendering. So keep up the good work! Half the time I'm not smart enough to even think of these questions, so you are deepening my reading experience, and thus my enjoyment of the books.

THAT'S WHY I HEART ALL OF SOUNIS. *HUGGLES EVERYONE*

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Exactly! :-)

He has to "use" Sophos but he doesn't want to abuse his friendship status. He wants Sophos to make the decisions himself.

Think of it this way, Sophos asks for Gen's help. Gen agrees, and says "Hey since we ARE such GREAT friends, I'm going to take Sounis too? I mean it's not temporary or anything, but I did SAVE your life once and we ARE BFFS..."

This is Gen being difficult and struggling with his position as Attolis over his friendships. Similar to how he struggles with his position as Attolis and his relationship to Irene. He loves her, and he doesn't want to take her power, but he has to be King.

*cues 'OH, I JUST CAN'T WAIT TO BE KING'* for irony

:-)

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BFFs... *snigger*

*cues Viva la Vida: Who Would Ever Want to be King as counterstrike*

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Well, Gen realizes this much later doesn't he?

Which is primarily why Attolia and Eddis both call him a fool at different times. He's being difficult. Also he doesn't want to use his friendship because while they are allied against the Mede Gen still needs Sounis. Same as Eddis does, and not just for nifty alliance against the Mede (See Lady Jane's comments below)

And nope, no stupid questions here! :-) Seriously....I think we discussed about everything including Gen's goat wool underwear =D

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Yes, underwear is listed as an acceptable discussion topic in the profile, via the Great Underwear Debate, in which several notable members of Sounis waged a heated academic discussion about what sort of underwear Gen's wears. Yeah, I'm serious...

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smills47.livejournal.com

(1) has nagged at me for quite a while. I think besides the frustration with himself, Gen is exasperated that he can't speak freely to Sophos during their interview because of the constant comings and goings of the attendants; also, he's angry because Sophos is still so innocent that he doesn't know what the pistol pockets are for -- and he knows that innocence will soon be lost for good.

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checkers65477.livejournal.com

#3--he doesn't want Melheret to know that they've just made a fool of him with Gen pretending to be beaten in sparring, and doesn't want him to know that he and Sophos are allies who go way back. He knows the odds of Melheret not discovering the truth about the sparring are slim, and they won't be able to use that trick again.

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Yeah, I agree. I think he's expressing his frustration with the whole Sophos/king/Mede issue in general. Thus he throws things! So very like Gen.

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smills47.livejournal.com

And from the resigned looks that the servants give, throwing things has certainly become something of a habit. Lol, if Gen and Irene just had to clean up after themselves, I'll bet the hurling of vessels would diminish PDQ.

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i love all of sounis too... i was dying to talk about the books and there was no one for years until i found this place! i would have forced my husband to read, but he really doesnt have time... so i forced him to listen to me tell him the entire story of the thief. he fell asleep just before i could tell him eugenides was the thief of eddis and had the stone in his hair all along. in his defence, it was 2 am, and i insisted on telling him everything in details, including describing the landscape (come on, i love those descriptions of the olive trees and the mountains!!). i was still mad at him for days.

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gen's underwear, noooo, i dont want to think of that! now you've got me blushing. no, i'm not a prude. :D

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awwww, you're right, i didnt think of it that way. aww, poor sophos, now you've got my heart breaking for him all over again.

lol, yeah, their servants should revolt for a day and refuse to clean up after them if they throw and destroy things out of anger. that'll teach them.

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i thought they were talking about the friendship between sophos and gen in that conversation (gen telling sophos to go on alone because it's beneficial to sow a little ambiguity); and when gen tells sophos later in the tavern that "Melheret will already know I was making a fool of him, and I won't be able to trick him again", he meant tricking him in the sparring match. or was that a continuation of the previous conversation?

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history is actually my favourite subject, although i never got to study it much at school. sadly. whatever i've read, i did on my own, and good books and resources are hard to come by where i live :(.

i do understand what happened between attolis and sounis (sophos pledging himself and his heirs permanently, etc). i think i meant something else with my question, but my thoughts are all jumbled up in my head at the moment because i have to run in a few minutes, and my kids keep coming and interrupting me just when i think i may have sorted them out. so i'll come back later when i have more time. it may take a few days though. cant wait to talk more about this!

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Hey, don't blame me. Queen Ro and WIllow started it! :D

http://sounis.livejournal.com/38116.html

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Not so much a background then, as an unhealthy obsession with the royal lines of Europe and most of the Near East. :D

See you then!

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checkers65477.livejournal.com

Yes, you are probably right. Esp. since Gen and Sophos had their arms around each other and were laughing together. Gosh, I love that part.

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mastelsa.livejournal.com

All of the things said previously, and then some. I think that there is also an apparent need for one unifying leader for the entire peninsula if they are going to avoid becoming part of the Mede empire. Whenever something big goes down like that, you're not going to want three different kings (or queens) attempting to coordinate and cooperate. You want one good leader designated to call the final shots and others to advise them and help them carry out their plan. Although Gen is a very reluctant leader, he is definitely the mastermind of the group of royals, and it makes sense for Eddis and Sounis to be under his semi-direct control in this situation.

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i KNOW what you mean about having an obsession about the royal lines of europe. it all started when i was about 7, when an aunt gave me a book of biographies and there was a biography on henry VIII which had a picture of his 6 wives and only said how they each ended up. so of course i had to find out all about each of them and then all the other kings and queens which made me go outside england and move on to the rest of europe. now i try not to have an obsession about anything, although i fail when it comes to the QT series. so the other day i was so engrossed with reading stuff on sounis that i didnt see my 2 year old hit herself in the eye with a toy drumstick (while trying to use it as a pretend shovel), which left the white part of her eye bleeding and red.

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so i just read through what you and everyone else wrote and i think what i was looking for is what you said here:

"He feels like this is a betrayal, because in a way he is "stealing" Sophos country and taking advantage if his weakened state, which essentially he is. Gen sees Sophos's compliancy as naivety and his loyalty as failing to understanding what he is truly giving away. Gen feels like their friendship is blinding Sophos to the truth, which in a way it sort of did..."

and also what mastelsa wrote below.

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