A CoK question

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Hi there,

I have a question about a scene in A conspiracy of Kings and I thought y'all could help me out with your snazzy new paperbacks! 

So, remember the scene where Sophos says, "Congratulate me, my king, I am to be married!"  and then Irene asks if Helen is to be Sophos' subject?  I still can't manage to work that scene out in my head. 

 When I first read it, I was a little miffed at Irene, since she had already made it clear that she was taking no part in the ceremony, but still jumped in to ask that rather pointed question.
 
Then when I reread it, I noticed that that Gen sort of looked from Irene to Sophos, as if choosing what to do, and then chose to follow Irene’s line of questioning.  He had to know how easily flustered Sophos is, and could have averted the situation, maybe saying something like, “We can discuss all that later, but for now, Congratulations!!” 
 
Then, my sister, 1221bookworm, pointed out to me that Gen and Irene were expecting that Helen would already have told Sophos about the implications of their engagement, so they were expecting Sophos to understand what he was saying. 
 
Lastly, we remembered that Helen tried to talk to Sophos, but he kept interrupting her.
 
So what do you all think?? Am I missing something important? (which is very likely) Do you have any other observations?

Thanks, booksrgood4u

Comments

[diadactic.livejournal.com]

He doesn't say who he's marrying before that question is being asked.

The question operates at two levels:
first, it asks who he's marrying, and
second, it alerts him as to the significance of who he's marrying.

[inkasrain.livejournal.com]

I think an important detail is that Attolia looks at Eddis after Sophos (can't get used to calling him Sounis!) announces his marriage, and shakes her head. I took that to mean that Attolia, Eddis and Gen (or at least the two queens) had already established the necessity of Sounis's wife being sworn to Attolis, and Attolia needed to know if Sounis was aware of this element of the situation. Presumably, the idea was for Eddis to break the news to Sounis herself, and for the announcement of their marriage to accompany Eddis's oath (though probably much more subtly.)

What confuses me is the way Gen handles the situation-- there's no question he knew that the bride Sophos was talking about was Eddis, and not his subject, so why does he ask? It just brought a sticky situation to light.

On a related note, I have to say that I wonder if this precedent of the Attolian overlord being able to influence the marriages of Eddis and Sounis's royalty might not cause problems in the distant future. Henry VIII split from his own religion when told whom he could and couldn't marry; splitting from an overlord for the same reason actually seems less drastic to me. (But I could just be sensitive to this because I'm actually not crazy about the idea of Eddis and Sounis subjugated and Basilaeus!Eugenides.)

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I think that Gen didn't realize that Sophos hadn't heard everything Helen had to say. He would have just gone on with it, assuming that Sophos understood the implications of marrying Helen. But Irene realized, maybe from watching Helen's face or just from guessing based on Sophos's behavior and what she knew of his personality (because he would probably not have been so ecstatic if he knew what he was saying), and she asked the pointed question in order to draw Gen's attention to the fact that Sophos didn't get it. And, possibly, to save Sophos from unwittingly committing himself and Helen to something he wasn't yet aware of.

That's my interpretation, anyway. I think I formulated it on the third or fourth re-read of that scene.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, she shakes her head! I definitely think that was the clue that Irene needed to realize that Sophos didn't know the requirements of marrying Eddis yet.

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

I've spend a lot of time parsing the scene after this one, but now I'm rereading just that bit.

Eugenides and Irene know that Helena and Sophos are in love and likely to marry, and Eugenides, Irene and Helen know that Helen is going to swear allegiance to Attolis -- not so much because she needs to marry Sophos and resettle her people in Sounis, and swearing to Attolis is a requirement of marrying him, as because she, the Magus, Irene, and Eugenides agree that one ruler is needed who can unite all three countries against the Medes.

It seems to me that the questions Irene and Eugenides ask are really asking, "Have you and Helen talked about what is going to happen with Eddis." Yes, there may be an overt political/legal technicality of the wife of a vassal also having to become a vassal, but that is in some way just the public excuse for what has to happen anyway. I believe Helen gets so angry when Sophos accuses Eugenides of making an opportune power-grab because she knows exactly how unwillingly and under compulsion he is taking on a role that he doesn't want. (And of course it is a manipulative power-grab, however much Eddis agrees it is necessary that Attolis become her overlord, and it will look from the outside like a manipulative power grab, as it does to Sophos.)

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Hmm, they could be trying to alert Sophos to the repercussions of his engagement, but, like you said, I still wonder why the handled it that way. Perhaps they weren't expecting Sophos to make such a public exclamation. If he had said the same in private, they could have discussed it, but by announcing it in the middle of a ceremony, it bacame an immediate issue to be resolved.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

I never thought that Irene's question might not have been directed to Sophos as much as it was a hint to Gen.
However,I always interpreted Helen shaking her head as a message saying, "No, I didn't tell him yet," telling Irene to let the comment pass because he didn't know what he was saying. Thats why Irene's response confuses me so much.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

I always thought Helen got so angry because Sophos said something to the effect of, "I won't allow you to swear loyalty to him," or something to that effect, but I never thought that she might be upset at Sophos' reaction to what is neccesary and his refusal to understand why it is neccesary.

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

You're propably right. Now that Sophos (I can't call him Sounis, either!) made that statement public, they were forced to make all the other arrangements "public" too.

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

It makes sense. If Irene saw Helen's face, which clearly said that Sophos didn't know what he was talking about, and knowing Sophos probably didn't realize that any marriage of Kings and Queens is big deal, and knowing that Gen has a soft spot for Sophos and would let it pass, and knowing that now that Sophos had announced it, any issues would have to be decided, (because she is still the best at how to handle those sort of sticky situations) Irene decided that she had better step in and alert all involved parties of their mistakes, and make sure the court got the right information to stop any rumors.

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

You're right. It all works out so well, because it gives Helen an opportunity to take her people out of Eddis, and it gives Gen complete control for when the Mede return (with their elephants!) because even though Eddis, allied with Attolia by marriage would work together, it's easier to have one leader over everybody else to resolve conflicts and make final decisions.

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

Sophos is a master at not recognizing the implications until after the fact. Unfortunately it was up to Gen and Irene to bring him up to speed, and it was really Sophos who put himself in that position.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hadn't considered that Helen's head shake could have been advising Irene just to let the comment pass. (I hadn't actually reread the scene when I posted the above, so I forgot about the head-shake entirely. I agree, that was definitely, at the very least, her saying "No, I didn't tell him.")

1221bookworm had a good point, though, that Irene might have guessed that with all three other people involved being so clueless (on Sophos's part) and liking each other so much (on everyone's part), nobody might have called the issue to light until it was too late, so she had to step in.

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

But when Sophos apologizes, and says, "I was stupid. I'm sorry. It was wrong of me to think that I could allow or disallow anything you choose to do. You are Eddis," she still isn't mollified. I think it's because he still doesn't understand: Sophos thinks this is a matter of independence and self-determination, but it's really, as Eddis finally reveals to him in the library, a matter of being under compulsions far far greater than political necessities or power-relations between little kingdoms.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Alright, here goes my new interpretation:

Gen and Irene sent Helen to tell Sophos the reprecussions of thier marriage.

Helen didn't tell Sophos, but figured that it didn't matter, she could always tell him later.

Sophos anounced to Gen, Irene, and the entire court that he and Helen were getting married, without knowing that there was more to the story.

Helen shakes her head to tell Irene that Sophos doesn't know what he's talking about yet.

Gen is ready to let Sophos comment slide, because Sophos is his friend.

Irene sees that Sophos just made a big mistake and that Gen isn't going to do anything about it, so she steps forward to draw both Gen and Sophos' attention to the issue that Sophos created by making such a public announcement.

Sound good?

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

Irene sees that Sophos just made a big mistake and that Gen isn't going to do anything about it, so she steps forward to draw both Gen and Sophos' attention to the issue that Sophos created by making such a public announcement.

Becasue Irene has soo much more experience keeping rumors from spreading, and Gen was going to let Sophos get away with anything becasue Sophos was his friend.

[etv13.livejournal.com]

Coming late to the party here, but I have to say, I've never understood what all this oath-swearing and vassalage business gets them that goodwill, on the one hand, and brute force, on the other, wouldn't. I mean, if you think of Irene/Gen, Helen and Sophos as the embodiment of sovereign states, there's no higher power -- no UN, no NATO, no Roman Catholic Church -- they can go to that will enforce their oaths. If Sophos's successor doesn't like the promises Sophos made, Attolis's only recourse will be to force -- and that would be the same recourse it (he) would have if Sophos hadn't sworn. Sophos may feel bound by his oath, but he would feel just as bound by his friendship with Gen. They don't even all believe in the same gods, or even if Sophos, Gen, Irene and Helen do, because of personal experience, it's not at all clear that their barons and armies and so forth do. So I'm wondering, really, what is the point?

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Hi!
I'm thinking that they're more interested in presenting a unified front to the Mede. Remember when Irene says, in KoA,

"If Attolia is not united when they (the Mede) strike again, then we are all, king, queen, patronoi, and okloi, lost"?

I think it's the same principle here.
Since Gen and Irene expect the Medes to launch an attack during their reign, they need a unified front NOW, and it would send a more united image if Sophos and Helen swore an oath to Gen rather than being suppressed by Attolis.

Also, Sophos shot the ambassador, so that makes things all the more complicated - he needs all the help he can get!!

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

I think that swearing an oath is a technicality to say to Sounis' barons, "Look, the King of Attolia has the final say in how we fight the Mede" This way, there is a very clear cut chain of command.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, maybe, but the Allies all agreed that Eisenhower was the supreme commander of the allied forces without the UK and France etc. having to subordinate themselves to the US in that way. And surely it doesn't do much for Sophos's authority over his own barons that he's subjugated himself to Gen. I can see that more as a recipe for resentment and rivalry and accusations of having sold his own country out ("we make him king and the next thing you know, he's subordinating us to our very recent enemy").

[etv13.livejournal.com]

Sorry, forgot to sign in -- this was me.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

That's a good point too.

Maybe Gen thinks it makes Sophos look stronger?
I'm thinking maybe he's hoping that the Sounisian barons will see what strong alliances he has and leave him alone, afraid that if they rebelled against him, Sophos could call on the Attolians and Eddisians. But still, like you said, it makes Sophos himself look weak. I don''t know, just a thought :)

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

Sophos has already made himself look very strong ("You shot the ambassador?!") I'm guessing he kind of told his barons what the story was going to be in all those discussions. But then again, he had the Mede ambassador who's name I can't spell in all the meetings with him, so maybe he didn't.

Alright, I just talked myself around in circles, guess I don't know what I'm talking about :-)

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[(Anonymous)]

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