Greatness, etc.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Recently, the good old Shakespeare quote "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them" floated into my mind. So (so, so) I started thinking about which category fits Gen best. If you look at his reluctance to take on authority, mainly the authority of being king (and eventually truly king) it seems like he's definitely one of those who have greatness thrust upon them. It's the whole point of KoA, what he lies to himself about and tries to escape from.

But I also think that Gen was born great, or at least with a very strong potential for greatness. He's very talented in many ways, and even though he fears taking up all his power as king, it's not as though he needs to change himself to be king. He's totally capable, he just has the ?reason to show his greatness? thrust upon him.

And yet, he chose to be king, so does that mean that he achieved greatness? Also, if you look beyond the greatest greatness of being king (if that makes sense), there's the greatness of being his Queen's Thief and specifically a Thief who stole Hamiathes' Gift, twice. Those are greatnesses that Gen sought out himself, that he couldn't have achieved without his natural greatness.

What do you guys think? Does he fit in one category more than the others? Do any of the characters fit clearly in one of them? What are we even defining as "greatness"? Power? Skill? Leadership? Courage? General awesomeness (would you consider Costis great?)? Power that's used morally or effectively? Dee skuss!

Oh, and if Gen, or anyone, had greatness upon him/her, who did the thrusting?* The gods? The situation? Does it count if you thrust it upon yourself?

* uh, besides mwt :)

Comments

[genndme.livejournal.com]

I think Gen creates an entirely new category: Those who have been born to achieve the greatness that is thrust upon them. Or, maybe he has a different greatness in each book. TT: achieve. QoA: thrust and achieve. KoA: thrust. CoK:in the process of achieving.
And, then again, he was born with the ability to be great so (so,so ;D) I guess you could just say that Gen IS great.
I think we'll all agree with that.
Be blessed in your (great) endevours!
God bless!

[genndme.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Sometimes wisdom just finds me and I'm shocked cuz I didn't even know it was there.
Alternatly: Wisdom got fed up with me trying to say something smart on my own and took pity on me.
Either way.

[sclerotia.livejournal.com]

Greatness is always being at the right place, at the right time, with the right skill set, and then doing the right thing. Part of this is circumstances beyond control, part of this is making the most of opportunities up to the critical point (for example getting the right education), and part of it is genius. Most of us simply float along with the current of circumstances; occasionally some of us have a moment of greatness when we rise to the occasion; but the truly GREAT are using their vision and genius to create the occasion and to seize the opportunity.

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

I think this sums up a lot of Gen. It combines all the areas of greatness and shows that anyone can have greatness, but I think it really points out that people who are considered great act that way in all circumstances, and Gen does plan to create circumstances where he can show off his greatness.

[genndme.livejournal.com]

You can say that again! Gen's fickle in that he's an attention hog and camera shy.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Oooh, what an interesting topic! I'm not sure exactly what I think--maybe that Gen doesn't fit into any of the categories (surprise!). Or maybe it's more that he chooses to let greatness be thrust upon him. Because, remember, there's a point in KoA where he says he doesn't dare let the gods know how much he wants to be king.

Maybe in the end, he's all three.

[genndme.livejournal.com]

Huh, I'll have to look that up. I thought he didn't dare want the gods to know how much he didn't want to be king in case they took that kingship (i.e. Attolia/Irene herself) away from him. I'll have to double check. Maybe I read it wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought too...hmmmm.

[genndme.livejournal.com]

I know. The one time I don't have the book on hand!

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

That's what I always thought. He was afraid the gods would take it away from him.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Right, but my point is more that he does want to be king. He doesn't dare admit it, but it's not something that's simply thrust upon him. Does that make more sense?

[genndme.livejournal.com]

I guess if you mean that he wants to be king because Irene's a queen. I think he'd be much happier if Irene was just a lady and she could move into Eddis' library.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Mmmm, I think I'd have to disagree. He wants to marry Irene, absolutely, and he probably wishes in some ways that it was that simple. But at the same time, he's nothing but not ambitious, and I think he's also driven by the vision of the need for a unified Sounis/Eddis/Attolia. I think what I'm trying to say is that he both wants and doesn't want to be king, and that once he is, his relationship with his position is still complicated.

[genndme.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Makes sense in a way. But I'd have to say that he most certainly doesn't want to be king and would much rather stay incognito as Queen's Thief but because he cares about Sounis/Eeddis/Attolia he feels bound to become king because (like you said) they need to be unified and the Eeddisians have to get off that mountain (like Helen said).

So, I guess he does want to be king but only because he's thinking of the greater good. Personally, he'd be fine as Queen's Thief with a beautiful wife called Irene.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

I think that Gen aspired to greatnes in TT, but as he started getting a taste of greatnes, he found out he didn't like it so much. So I think by KoA Gen has stopped aspiring to greatness and even dreading greatness, but it continued to be thrust on him...so he played dumb to avoid it - but it found him anyway. ALso, I think Gen does have an innate greatness - so he couldn't repress it for long.

Short answer: All of the above!

P.S. Costis is great just because he is Costis. Period. ;)

[genndme.livejournal.com]

That's a good way of putting it.

P.S. I like Costis, too. Sometimes I make up stories with my sisters and Costis sounds just like one of her characters (and yet she still puts off reading the books!).

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Please tell your sister from me that I strongly advise that you should always read what your sister says is good...because if you don't and you eventually break down and read it and wind up liking it, your sister will rub your nose in it FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!!!...I know this from painful experience! *glares at 1221bookworm*

[genndme.livejournal.com]

There's a story behind that. Does it have anything to do with the QT series?

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

ACTUALLY, it has happened to both of us. I read an online review of a book that didn't paint it in a good light, so I decided not to request it. Later, books read a different review and decided to read it, and Really, really enjoyed it. Now it is one of her 2 favorite series. (It is the Truth Series by Dawn Cook). There is a different series (The Farsala Trilogy by Hilari Bell, I highly reccomend it :) where she read the first book and didn't really enjoy it, but I made her read the second book, (because the first book was mainly set-up,) and now she really enjoys the series, even if it isn't her favorite.

As for QT, she was so afraid of what would happen in QoA that she made me read it and tell her if it was as bad as some of the reviews made it out to be. (And don't remind her that it was her idea to request TT)

[genndme.livejournal.com]

Ha! I can see why she was so scared by QoA! I can't describe to you the depths of my shock (and horror) at what happens in that first chapter! There are very few books that actually throw me a curveball (TT almost did but I knew something was up by all the hints Gen dropped) but QoA takes the cake. I have never been so blown away in my entire life!

I'll be sure not to tell books... HEY BOOKS! IT WAS YOUR IDEA TO REQUEST 'TT'! ..... I'll keep my mouth shut, you can trust me... ;D
*what do you know, I'm getting to be as bad as Gen*

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

I had read these reveiws that were yammering on about the senseless torture of children blah blah blah...and I really loved The Theif and I didn't want to spoil it if QoA was really as bad as all that...That's what sisters are for, right??!

[genndme.livejournal.com]

Ah. Personally, I'm a little possesive if I've started a series: I want to be the absolute first one to finish no questions asked. ;D

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

I think you make a great point, books, about realizing just what greatness required, and not really wanting it anymore. In TT, he was aspiring to greatness, but in Eddis, he could hide it when he wanted to. (These were all people he had grown up with, so to them he could never be too great, becuase wasn't this little Gen, who cried his eyes out when his brothers took away his favorite stuffed animal? P.S. completely fictional account used to illustrate a point :)

But in KoA, he was out in the open, among people who wanted him to prove himself, and the nature of his position had changed, and he could no longer hide in the shadows, so he wanted out.

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

Oooh, what a good question! I agree with what a lot of people said: that you can basically put him into all three categories at different times during different books. But if you want to put him into one specific category, I'd say he is one of those who is born great. However, I also think it's very difficult to distinguish between those who are "born great" and those who "achieve greatness," because if you are born great, then you usually achieve greatness, and its pretty hard to achieve greatness if you're not already...well, great. But anyway, here's the basis of what I believe:

People who are born great: I think Eugenides fits this category because he is naturally brilliant and he is usually in control of everything (I mean, in every book we find out by the end that Gen had everything planned his way all along). Gen would share this category with people like Dumbledore and Howl--people who possess such innate talent and strength of mind that they just HAD to be born with it; and with that talent and intelligence, they did great things. I would say Gen was born with great talent and intelligence, and he got to where he is because of it.

People who achieve greatness: I think characters like Kel and Beka from Tamora Pierce's books fit this category. I don't want to say they were ordinary people who randomly "achieved greatness," but they're kind "everygirls," as opposed to Alanna, Daine, and Aly, all of whom had Gods on their side backing them up. Kel and Beka really had to sweat and suffer with no superior deity patting their backs to get to their positions (I suppose Beka had the Black God, but he wasn't playing the same role the Goddess did for Alanna). Before either character went and experienced their adventures, they were pretty normal girls. However, after their adventures, they had become amazing women who had achieved so much.

People with greatness thrust upon then: Here lies Harry Potter and Aang from A:TLA. Both boys are pretty talented and intelligent, but on the whole they're just normal guys. The only reason they became so great was because they had these huge destinies to fulfill, these really stressful duties to perform. Their greatness was LITERALLY trust upon them.

And yeah...that's how I would differentiate between the three characters. I would also like to point out that even though I think Gen is "born great," he's also very relate-able and very human. I feel it's hard to connect to someone like Howl or Dumbledore, because those characters are portrayed as people who are so high above us, whereas we can connect very well to Gen. Such is the talent of MWT.

[queeniodine.livejournal.com]

What a thoughtful discussion question, agh! I think it's also important to take into account that greatness can be subjective. Gen most likely thought he 'achieved greatness' by becoming the Thief of Eddis before Attolia cut off his right hand. Yet, he was still imprisoned for theft in Sounis at the beginning of TT. Because he was imprisoned for something that -he- was proud of, did Gen ever gain any greatness for his actions as a thief?