Queen of Attolia Questions

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Yeah, more of them! And to think we've discussed almost everything already. What can I say? The QT week got to me! So, in the middle of me studying for a Psych exam, proving tree structures, reading assignment handouts and starting the Farsala Trilogy, I managed to squeeze in a second re-read of QoA. I'm not finished the book yet; I'm about halfway through.

But within that half, I have several questions already. I do realize that if I read on and finish the book, some of these might be answered, but seeing my packed schedule, I doubt I'd be patient enough to wait for me to finish the book to find the answers. So... here are the questions: 

1) What is the point of Moira warning Attolia not to offend the gods? Eddis’s gods are not her gods, and even if they were, she openly admitted that she doesn’t worship any. So, did Moira’s warning actually influence Attolia’s decision to cut Gen’s hand?

2) Did Gen get addicted to lethium?

3) Why did Eddis think that marrying Gen off to Agape would help him recover? I think Eddis is close enough to Gen to know that he isn’t the type to accept wifey affection. Or was she just thinking that Gen was a lost cause and she should just prepare a nice, comfortable life for him, since he is obviously neglecting himself?

4) Ooh... did anyone else notice this? It was in the story of Horreon and Hespira. “Mortals do not challenge the gods. Only once had a mortal dared and he’d been driven insane for his insolence.” No wonder Eddis thought Gen might be insane near the end!

5) So, I’m taking an introductory course in Psychology this semester, and lookie at what I found in my textbook: phantom limbs!! It turns out that if you lose a limb, the part of your brain responsible for receiving sensory information from it “assumes to some degree the function of the closest group next to it”. And guess what is represented in the brain next to the hand? The face!!!

It says here: “...an amputee who has lost a hand may, when his or her eyes are closed, perceive a touch on the cheek as if it were on the missing hand...”

Ooh, and remember when later in the book, Gen *always* gets chills when Attolia holds his face? That is soooo weird! To think he might actually feel like she's touching the hand she cut off! Ugh!

6) More psych stuff. So, so, so I also found out that our subconsciousness actually makes really good decisions, which is why we usually “sleep” through a really tough problem. I was reading over some of the older posts about QoA, and I sort of had a hard time reasoning why Attolia, after thinking thoroughly about Gen’s punishment, seemed to have chosen a politically weaker one. The “subconscious is smarter” approach seems to makes sense to me for now; Attolia’s instinct told her to hang him, but she ignored that one and went for something else.

But I feel like all this psych stuff isn’t really the answer to the QT mysteries, lol, so I’m turning to Sounis again. What do you guys think?

7) In relation to the previous question, if the answer has something to do with hurting Eddis, then here’s my problem with that.

By the end of the novel, I believe that we are supposed to perceive Attolia as a queen whose intentions are only for the betterment of her country. So this paints her in a good light, actually. But after re-reading , I just have a hard time trying to reconcile this image of a selfless queen who will do anything for the well-being of her kingdom, to the person we see during the chop-chop scene. I mean, at this time, Attolia took advantage of Gen’s vulnerability to “hurt Eddis at every level” . Does this mean that Attolia is a bit of a sadist? That there exists a small part of her who is so caught up in her loneliness and suffering that it makes her feel better to see someone else suffering, even if she must induce it herself?

I’m just getting confused with all the contradictions here. One minute Eddis and Gen are saying that she cut off Gen’s hand because she wants to inflict pain upon a rival. The next minute, we see Gen defending Attolia. Then the next (though I haven’t gone there yet on my re-read), we see Eddis saying that Attolia doesn’t revel in extreme punishments for pleasure. But why else would she hurt Eddis if it didn’t please her to see a rival hurt?

8) More Attolia question. (Haha, if I wasn’t so trusting in MWT’s abilities to create complex characters, I would really be forced to write Attolia off... But since it’s by MWT, Attolia’s actually one of my fav characters). Do you guys think that her hatred towards Eddis is irrational? What I mean is that... yes, okay, I understand her jealousy. Eddis had a lot of things that Attolia was deprived of. I thought cutting Gen’s hand off was reasonable given the circumstance (aside from the emotional motivations). But when Eddis explains to Gen how Attolia has come to hate her, I just feel like it’s an insufficient reason for “hate”. Hate’s a strong word. Why would Attolia blame Eddis for something that was out of Eddis’s control? Eddis didn’t choose to be queen; Eddis didn’t choose the peaceful country she was to rule.

On the other hand, it is Attolia’s choice to be queen of a nation that she knows is politically unstable. I mean, of course, the alternative is to have to watch greedy, power-hungry idiots rule her country, but setting that aside, Attolia’s circumstance was her choice. I don’t know how to explain my dilemma any more than that... I just feel like Attolia hates Eddis because she’s miserable and Eddis isn’t, when it is due to her own choice that she’s become miserable in the first place. It doesn’t make sense to me.

9) Why would Eddis and Gen need to look amorous? What’s the advantage of having Attolia and Sounis think that Eddis is sleeping with Gen, rather than just consulting with Gen? Eddis seemed so comfortable and nonchalant about the idea, haha.

10) Would you believe it if I say I thought ‘philandering’ had something to do with ‘philanthropy’ and could absolutely NOT guess why in the world Gen philandering would be so scandalous? I feel like such an idiot, haha. And I love how Gen was so naive about the whole thing!

11) Let’s talk about Therespides, the philanderer. So we find out that he’s a spy for Relius, and that Gen suggests shooting him, but later, we find out that he is Eddis and Gen’s mutual cousin! It is even said that he admires Gen a lot. Isn’t it a little strange to find out that one of your relatives is a spy for a country you’re at war with? How can Eddis ever think that her subjects are so loyal?

12) What do you guys think of this theory: Attolia cutting of Gen’s hand is like emasculating him, and stealing her throne is him regaining his masculinity, and QoA is a book about sexual domination. I’m not saying this is right or wrong; obviously there are so many ways to interpret a book, but when I read this theory from one of the comments here , I can’t help but think that if this is true, it totally flew over my head.


So, any responses would be greatly appreciated!!

Comments

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Apologies in advance, because I haven't read QoA recently and because I'm half brain dead from writing a paper. So, that said. Here's what I've got:

1) I think this has something to do with the gods 'allowing' Attolia to go so far with Gen... catching him and cutting off his hand being within her rights and part their grand scheme and all... but they're trying to do something epic here so please Attolia don't kill him off completely or else prepare for pestilence and plague. Or something like that.

2) I... honestly don't know? Gen the addict hadn't occurred to me before. Could this have anything at all to do with his "ill health" in book 4? It's obviously been too long since I've read the books...

3)& 4) I think Eddis was picking up on the secret fact that Gen was in love with the woman who chopped off his hand, and yes, she was questioning his sanity. Hence, push him at Agape instead.

5) There's a part somewhere (where??) when Gen describes the itch of a wound that didn't heal on his hand before it was cut off. Am I remembering this right?

6-8) Seems perfectly natural to me that Attolia is full of contradictions, confused feelings, and self-inflicted anguish. She's human. She's a human in love. She's a human in love with someone she maimed.

9) ...I used to know this. But yeah, at the moment, I've got nothing.

10), 11), 12) *brain dies*

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

"...subconsciousness actually makes really good decisions, which is why we usually “sleep” through a really tough problem..."

That would explain why I always sleep instead of doing my homework.

[purplecat]

With 8, Attolia I don't think you can say Attolia chose to be miserable. The alternative to seizing power for herself was to allow herself to the disregarded wife of the king, useful only for the apparent legitimacy she conveyed to his reign. With a high chance he would get assassinated in due course and she would be passed on, as spoils, to the victor. I think part of her anger is that she never had the choice to be happy, like Eddis largely is, her options were pawn or dictator with no one caring about her personally at all.

6) When she cuts off Gen's hands she driven by lots of things, anger with Gen, jealousy of Eddis, anger that Eddis nearly manipulated her into hanging him and, of course, her desire to be seen to be taking Nahuseresh's advice. She regrets the decision later, and not just for personal reasons. I think she recognises she wasn't acting calmly at the time.

12) A lot of both QoA and KoA, I would say, are about domination (sexual and otherwise) both in terms of Gen and Attolia wanting power over each other, and at times not wanting power over each other. I'm not sure the story offers a simple narrative on that, they strike me more as a negotiation in which two very powerful, extreme and distinct personalities find an accomodation with each other.

9) I think the deception is because Therespides knows that they are meeting in secret and will pass that information back to Attolia. Eddis would rather Attolia thinks she and Gen are lovers, than that Attolia thinks Gen has recovered enough to be plotting something.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

With 8, Attolia I don't think you can say Attolia chose to be miserable. The alternative to seizing power for herself was to allow herself to the disregarded wife of the king, useful only for the apparent legitimacy she conveyed to his reign. With a high chance he would get assassinated in due course and she would be passed on, as spoils, to the victor. I think part of her anger is that she never had the choice to be happy, like Eddis largely is, her options were pawn or dictator with no one caring about her personally at all.

There's also the chance that she'd be assassinated herself, probably after producing an heir or two. I really wonder about her mother's death, sometimes, which I guess we don't know anything about. Attolia the country makes me think of the political machinations in harems in the Ottoman Empire and the Near East, where wives and concubines could be poisoned or strangled by opposing political factions if it looked like they had too much influence over the sultan. Irene's father had concubines, according to somewhere in QoA, who had her mother's jewelry shared out to them, so I really kind of wonder if she wasn't assassinated as well, because she was too influential, having produced the heir. She doesn't appear to be living at the time of Irene's brother's death or her father's.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

1) What is the point of Moira warning Attolia not to offend the gods? Eddis’s gods are not her gods, and even if they were, she openly admitted that she doesn’t worship any. So, did Moira’s warning actually influence Attolia’s decision to cut Gen’s hand?

I think this was a power play on the part of the gods. Attolia understands threats -- they're basically what kept her reign together at that point. She also doesn't respond well to orders, so this was Moira putting the pressure on her to make sure she plays along. Gen is one of their favorites, and to get everything to fall into order in the future, they need Attolia to cooperate.

2) I don't think so. Lethium is an opiate analogue, and opiates tend to have really nasty addiction and withdrawal symptoms. Like, lots of nastiness with the digestive tract. There would be more clues if that were the case. And Gen hates the side effects from it, without addiction, so I really can't see that happening.

3) I think Agape is a lot more complicated character than just A Nice Wife. I mean, her name means love, and it's come to mean in Christian love/charity/benevolent love. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape) has a really interesting quote from Thomas Jay Oord about it: he defines it as "an intentional response to promote well-being when responding to that which has generated ill-being." Intriguing in the context of the story, no? Isn't well-being exactly what Gen needs to be promoted at that moment?

Also, check out the conversation she has with Gen at dinner in QoA. She's really sharp and brave and not nearly as sweet as her reputation tells her to be. And then she's chosen, out of all the royal cousins, to be Sounis's (Sophos's uncle) bride because she's very much like Eddis. I think that idea from Eddis is a lot more subtle and complicated than just wifely affection.

5) Ooh, and remember when later in the book, Gen *always* gets chills when Attolia holds his face? That is soooo weird! To think he might actually feel like she's touching the hand she cut off! Ugh!

I don't know. I think it might be that he's still terrified of her, and he carries that fear with him into KoA. Remember when he asks her to tell him that she won't blind him, deafen him, etc. after the assassination attempt? When he's marched off in chains back to the megaron, as far as he knows, he's about to be executed by this woman who he's just kidnapped.

9) This was a political maneuver, to lay a false trail of information and sow confusion. I'd imagine that if you're at war with someone, finding out that the person who the war's been started over is the queen's lover would up the ante a bit.

11) Isn't everyone in Eddis everyone else's cousin? I think there's something QoA where Gen is talking to the magus and he mentions having people whose entire job is making sure people about to get married aren't too closely related. So, finding out that your cousin was betraying you in a country where everyone is your cousin probably has less of an impact than in one with a greater population.

[enleve.livejournal.com]

6-8) I think Attolia has a certain grim satisfaction that it is now politically expedient to do something to hurt Eddis. If Attolia did not punish Gen in some way, she would have other people at her court challenging her for power because she showed "weakness".

In a lot of ways Attolia's circumstances aren't her choice. If she didn't become queen, she either would be a prisoner in a forced marriage or dead, because whoever took the throne would want her claim to the throne neutralized. Attolia had no control over being born into a royal family. Neither did Eddis, for that matter.

I think what Attolia truly hates is the circumstances she's in, and the things she's had to do just to survive. And what thinking about Eddis does is remind her of all of that, and to show that there are alternative ways to live, but Attolia doesn't have access to them. There's a lot of pain there.

It's kind of like Eddis is untouchable and living in a different world, and all of a sudden Attolia has the power to touch her, to bring her in a way, for a short time, into Attolia's world. It might be similar to the way a person who is poor or middle class might feel about seeing a CEO suddenly have to live on minimum wage.

12) This theory feels somewhat cheap to me. Like, it's reducing the thing too much, oversimplifying it. I think it is about power, but not so much about sex. Or if it is about sex, not in that way.

[heiros-acumen.livejournal.com]

"When he's marched off in chains back to the megaron, as far as he knows, he's about to be executed by this woman who he's just kidnapped"

I'm not sure about this...Remember: Attolia was wearing the earrings Gen gave her which she said she would only wear if she was willing to marry him. So this is something I puzzle about, did Gen know what Attolia was planning with the Mede? I have to think that he did. He told his father to tell Eddis "War" knowing that Attolia would have her troops do that cool trick thing and only attack the Mede army.

So what was the moment that Gen realized Attolia would marry him? It can't have been on the mountain when she slapped his face, so maybe it was seeing the earrings?

[purplecat]

It's when he sees the earrings. She puts them on when she gets back to the megaron and then forces him to look at her and asks him if he understands what is going to happen to him, and he says yes. Everything she does after that is based on the gamble that grasped the double meaning in her words and told his father the key facts in the few minutes he has between then and sending his father back to the Mede. At least that's how I read those scenes. She incredibly anxious that that the gamble won't have paid off.

[purplecat]

Agreed, her mother is a huge blank and yes, Attolia probably was at risk of assassination after producing an heir.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Lol XD. Then that would imply two things: you're very smart or you've got lots of problems. Or both! Haha, jks.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Ah, no worries. I know what it feels like to be half brain dead. *in a similar situation as you*

5) Yeah, it was actually a wound on his hand that hadn't healed yet. He always felt it still hurts, when in fact there is no hand anymore. =/

6-8) Aww, nice answer.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Hmm, you know what? I've never considered that she'd actually be assassinated after producing an heir. I just thought she'd be in the sidelines.

9) Okay, I think that makes sense. =)

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

2) Okay. I saw a few theories hanging around about it so I was curious.

3) Nice catch! I often forget that Agape is just like Eddis; when I think of her, I just think about a nice, sweet person, but after reading the dinner passage just earlier today, I can see that she was also considered witty.

4) Yeah, definitely he's still afraid of her. I just thought it was so weird and creepy when I read that from my textbook, and immediately thought of Gen and Attolia.

11) True, but it was also heavily implied that Therespides was one of the cousins who was enraged with Gen's amputation and wanted to wage the war against Attolia. I just found it strange that the same cousin would be a spy for Attolia.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

6-8) Yeah, I understand the unfairness of her situation, just not the part why her hatred is all projected towards Eddis.

"It's kind of like Eddis is untouchable and living in a different world, and all of a sudden Attolia has the power to touch her, to bring her in a way, for a short time, into Attolia's world. It might be similar to the way a person who is poor or middle class might feel about seeing a CEO suddenly have to live on minimum wage."

Haha, but this is a nice way to put it.

12) I totally agree with you.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

2) Really? I never had that impression. Relius admits that thieves don't have self-preservation, but addiction usually has very bad side-effects that would, I assume, affect Gen's thiefy-ness, hehe. I don't think it's a trait his grandfather would have particularly encouraged. Ooh, and msmcknittington has a nice answer above. ^__^

3) Gen is a man, but I think he's a reserved kind of man. He didn't quite catch on what was wrong with Eddis getting caught by Therespides sneaking into his room, so he's still naive about that kind of thing. And you're right though, there are many advantages of sex, but I do believe I've read somewhere that sex is only healthy if you are emotionally stable. Engaging in sex while being an emotional wreck (which we can consider Gen to be), can have more negative side effects. I doubt being cornered into a marriage will help with that. =P

Oh you're right, she never told him he should marry Agape, but she already had it planned behind his back.

7) Haha, lol, true, true. But it's MWT. I expect it of other authors to initiate a plot with an event "just 'cuz", but it's MWT. She usually has so many intricacies in her books, that I don't know which I should look into, and which I shouldn't.

8) Ooh I like that answer. I think it makes sense.

9) Mhmm, but I was confused why it needed to be an affair, rather than just consulting.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I haven't thought a great deal about this and I don't have the books in front of me, but regarding 11) there's also the possibility that Therespides doesn't quite realize exactly who he's selling information to, particularly considering that he's a philanderer and also considering Relius' situation in The King of Attolia.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

5) Interesting thought. It could be an underlying thing adding to the reaction, but I think there are more direct reasons for it. Doesn't she hold his face right before she has his hand cut off? I think it's a pretty sharp reminder of that moment every time she touches his face.

2) I think that lethium is pretty much a laudanum analogue. It could be highly addictive, but I think Gen shows more signs of fearing the thought of getting addicted to it (as well as really disliking the effects it has on him) than signs of getting addicted to it. Although, he does seem to be flirting with alcoholism as a substitute addiction at some points.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

3) WHAT?!! *is shocked* I always took it for granted that he *hasn't* been with any woman other than Irene. And reading all the multiple fanfictions about their wedding night, I'm certain I'm not the only one who thinks so. I mean, call it wishful thinking and escapism, but it'd be a nice change for once if we actually get a male lead who isn't so... loose? (Though that's probably a terrible word for what I'm actually looking for. *hugs Sophos*)

Actually, what's interesting was that I saw a theory somewhere, I don't remember where, where Gen is actually the virginal one and Irene wasn't. It had something to do with Irene using her "beauty" to manipulate men in her court, but I think that's highly unlikely too.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

"In fact I think it makes all the more wonderful and beautiful, because she is so gorgeous, and if he never had sex then it may have been that he was just totally fascinated and intrigued by her in that aspect. If he has had before her then it's on an emotional and intellectual level more."

Lol, personally I disagree very much with this point.

But that's alright, we can agree to disagree! ^__^

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Really? Lol, I thought the opposite. Everything nowadays is so sexualized, it's hard to find a place where you're not constantly bombarded with those kinds of images.

In any case, I doubt I'm from your culture anyway. ^__^ But I do think that my culture is a bit more conservative than most.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Sex is also very different for men then it is for women, way less emotionally involved and more of a release

So, I am not a man, but I can tell you that this absolutely isn't true. It's a cultural fallacy -- it's the way our society shapes the narrative surrounding sex, but there are tons and tons of men for whom sex is a very emotional thing and who don't have sex with any person who comes along because they need that emotional connection. I don't find it at all difficult to believe that Gen was a virgin when he married Irene, and him being depressed because he couldn't have sex after having his hand cut off seems kind of farfetched. He has tons to be depressed over.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

3) I'm actually really intrigued by Agape's character, and I hope that she shows up more in future books. She seems to have a lot of potential for awesome in her, and I'd love to see that realized.

11) I think I chalked that up to political intrigue being really complicated and not necessarily personal. Or maybe Therespides just being stupid and trading gossip (possibly while philandering!), not realizing how important and useful it was politically.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

3. I've always been intrigued by Agape too, not only as a person, but as regards her relationship to Eddis. After all Eddis keeps trying to marry her off to people who probably won't fully appreciate her, don't really want her (they want someone else), and end up not marrying her. First Gen-then Sounis. If I were Agape I would be frustrated with my situation in life by this point and not all that inclined to be helpful. To a certain extent she was prepared for it I'm sure, as the cousin of the Queen she had to know she would not be making her own decisions in these matters. Still what Eddis was asking her to do-TWICE-is a lot. Then to be rejected BOTH times. Ouch.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

1) Attolia doesn't have to believe in or worship the gods for them to still cause her all kinds of problems. They were giving her fair warning. I don't think it influenced her decision though, the Mede did that when he pointed out that hanging him was too easy.

6-8)I don't think Attolia is a sadist anymore than any of us are. Her hatred for Eddis isn't rational, which is something she pretty much admits to in their conversation in the end. (Hatred rarely is rational though.) As someone else said this is part of Attolia being a complex person. Gen represented everything that Attolia resented in Eddis. He was her security and he gave her his complete and unwavering loyalty. After all Attolia offered him the chance to betray Eddis to save himself in TT and he turned her down. And insulted her while he was at it. I think it says so much about what kind of person she is that she immediately regretted her decision, even if she never voiced that regret, even before the political ramifications began. It was the move of a person who was beginning to unravel and she saw that herself and didn't like what it showed.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering, why does Gen being a man with manly needs make you think a mistress might be appearing at some point? I always got the impression from KoA Irene was taking care of that just fine. I completely agree with you that it should not be forgotten that he is an adult and a man and that is definitely a factor in his life. I'm just curious how that=mistress.

As far as Eddis wanting Gen to marry Agape it says after their fight over him not being allowed on the roof "the accusation about the arranged marriage had been a home shot" and Eddis keeps rearranging the seating so Gen and Agape are sitting next to each other. I always thought the two together implied that Agape was the one Eddis wanted him to marry. (Part of what I love about MWT though is that could be interpreted by someone else a completely different way.)

While I am not going to attempt to naively assert Gen's virginity on his wedding night (though it is not impossible-he is still quite young) I don't think any experience he may have gained was with any of the women in the court at Eddis considering they wouldn't even dance with him for fear of losing their possessions.

I like that you have brought this element up as it does require us to think further about the characters in all their complexity.