The Lions of Sounis

[shelver506.livejournal.com]

The gate was made out of blocks of stone bigger across than I am tall. Something else supposedly built by the old gods, it was topped by a solid stone lintel with two carved lions that were supposed to roar if an enemy of the king passed beneath them . . . They remained silent as we passed under.

Another passage I've been wondering about. Why do you suppose the lions didn't roar? I've come up with a few possible reasons.

1) The Sounisian old gods are different from Eddisian old gods and therefore do not exist (this presumes theistic system that excludes ALL other gods, new, Mede, and Attolian gods included).

2) MWT sets up the scene as a way to invalidate all mythological systems in order to make the later appearance of the gods that much more shocking. Any in-world reason for the lions not roaring is conveniently neglected in order to make the proper plot statement.

3) The gods recognize Eugenides, not the current Sounis, as the proper king due to his future title of Annux. (This presumes a theistic system featuring at least one omniscient god [as opposed to Moira, who has only partial foresight.])

Thoughts?

Comments

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

I would suspect that the King of Sounis has rather a lot of enemies, and that the lions on the gate have never roared at any of them.

Another possibility:

4) There are gods (of one or another kind) but the way that the divine manifests itself and actually intervenes is quite different from any particular myth or local legend about it. So the fact that popular legend about the lion gate appears to be false only tells us that the legend is false; it doesn't say anything about whether or not (or to what extent, or which ones) the gods are real.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

This was my feeling, too, ricardienne, but would also add that I can imagine the god Eugenides--when Gen passes beneath the gate--telling the others, "wouldn't it be a hoot if we made the lions roar? Let's make them roar!!" and Moira telling him to cut it out right now.

Really, though, I don't think the gods take that kind of interest in mortals. Moira is the only one who becomes involved to any great degree. Well, plus the unnamed goddess at the end of QoA. Oh! And Eugenides telling Gen to go to bed.

Wait, I've just blown my entire theory. Obviously, they do take that kind of an interest, just on their own terms.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Moira and Eugenides = the serious-business-woman-cop and the joker-man-cop on every crime show ever created

Yeah, by the time TT rolls around the gods have pulled out of pretty much all mortal affairs (except for a few odd cases such as Eugenides still taking care of the Thieves, but since when has he done what everyone expects him to?)--they only get involved again to set the Annux plot into motion. So maybe once upon a time the lions would have roared, but now the gods just don't bother anymore.

Moreover, they want Gen to succeed, so it would be a bad move on their part to alert the Magus.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Since we've had every indication that the old gods worshiped in Sounis and Attolia are the same as the gods currently worshiped in Eddis (I think the magus says it at some point), I don't think it can be #1.

#2 is possible, but unlike her.

#3 might be it, but I don't think the gods are omniscient in that way...

There are other possibilities, though; for instance, Eugenides might be working against the king's wishes, but the gods don't define "enemy of the king" that way. Sounis might even believe Gen is his enemy, but the gods know that Gen isn't, ultimately, and the lions don't roar for that reason.

Or the lions might not have been built by the old gods, even if those gods are real. Or they might have been built by gods but the story about the roaring is just a myth.

Or maybe (and I think this one says something interesting about the progression of science and technology in their newly-Renaissance world) the story is true and the lions did used to roar, back in the days when the gods were more active among mortals and more people believed in them. But they have since retreated into a more distant position relative to the people of the world, more behind-the-scenes, and blatantly causing miracles (at least, where everyone is around to see them, as opposed to just a select few--such as Gen and Costis on the palace walls) isn't the gods' style anymore.

This is a very interesting question. I've always noticed this passage but never really took the time to think about it in detail before! I do think your theory #2 makes a very good point. Though I don't think MWT is lying to us, exactly, because I believe there are other reasons to explain it, it does still serve a very useful purpose. By predisposing the reader to assume that future instances of the gods that appear in the story, such as the tale of Hamiathes's Gift, will be false as well, this short passage sets us up for a greater shock later on.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

I agree with ricardienne that the legend may be false, but the gods may not be. Personally, if Sounis'/the Invaders' gods exist and are anything like Hephestia & co., I don't think they'd have any interest in building the city or warning the Sounisian king of his enemies.

I'm not sure how much of the mythology (that we know, at least) matches up with the truth, even the old gods' myths. I would lean towards saying that the old gods of Eddis aren't the only gods. This isn't much evidence, but when Costis makes his ten cups oath to Miras, Gen seems to care about keeping it, suggesting that Gen believes or partially believes in the new gods. On the other hand, he could just be acting respectful (ok, typing that seems a little odd. Respectful? Tactful? Thankful to Costis for saving his life? Acknowledging Costis's honor?).

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Oh, oops. Right. I just re-realized that I do think that the gods who may or may not have built the lions ARE Hephestia & co.

[lylassandra.livejournal.com]

Too lazy to go look up the passage... but who exactly is crossing under? If Sophos and/ or the Magus are there, they certainly aren't enemies of the king's... but altogether I favor either the "legend is bogus" or the "gods don't care anymore" explanation.

[shelver506.livejournal.com]

The whole group. Gen, the magus, Pol, Ambiades, Sophos.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Isn't the simplest explanation that Eugenides isn't an enemy to the king of Sounis at that time?

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

By Occam's Razor, this one definitely wins out.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

I heard hoofbeats and saw horses. That hardly ever happens! :P

[shelver506.livejournal.com]

Technically, he is. He's in the middle of a full-fledged espionage mission (treason!) with the end goal of thwarting the King. I mean, I would define that as enemy-ish, wouldn't you?

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Ah, but gods don't seem to operate on the same definitions as people. Just because the king of Sounis thinks he's an enemy doesn't mean his gods are going to.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

It's not TECHNICALLY treason... Gen isn't a subject of Sounis. ;-)

[helle-d.livejournal.com]

I'd say the lion thing is just superstition. (Though I like the idea that it once was true, but know longer...) Look at the way the Magus, Eugenides et al know different versions of the same legends about the gods - there's definitely not much in the way of absolute truth. Until the point, of course, where Gen realises that the gods exist and that there are some true things.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Also, for any newish people, Megan has said that the gates of Sounis were inspired by the lion's gate at Mycenae. You can see photos of it here (http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/dictionary/Dict/image/Lion-gate.jpg) and here (http://www.athensminibus.com/eikones/mycenae.jpg).

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Laryngitis, of course.

(Liongitis?)

[crazededdisian.livejournal.com]

. . . I wish they'd roared at Ambiades. He would have been the best option for them.

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

Ah, but do we really wish they had given away Ambiades' game so early? Another possibility is that the gods are (as we see them do) acting on a much larger scale than that of particular kings in particular little countries. So the Lion Gates might only roar in circumstances in which an enemy of the current king of Sounis is passing under them, but they will only roar if and because indicating that serves the larger purposes of the gods. (Though I still think that context indicates a legend that has never been confirmed in historical memory)

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

I think most of the people of the time had dismissed the Lion's roaring as a myth to scare children into good behavior. That's the impression that I got from Gen, but we know how reliable Gen is ....

(And in a way, was he really an enemy of Sounis?? He wasn't looking to assainate the king - even though he easily could have - he was just working under a different agenda than the king of Sounis, one that had a better result for all of Eddis)

[shelver506.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of the legend being just a myth... and yet how many other things were supposed to be myths as well? Really, the gods themselves, the stories about Eugenides and his scar, all supposed myths! No one's supposed to believe them anymore, and yet they're real. In such a world, wouldn't it be more likely to assume that such a "myth" must have come from a kernel of truth?

In which case, that leaves us the "gods on their own terms" thing, but I'm not sure I like that either. Bugger.