A Conspiracy of Kings Question

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

(If this has been asked or discussed before, please tell!)

I just finished re-reading the entire series--and now I have nothing good to read--and I noticed that despite Eddis and Gen's relationship, we only ever hear Gen call Eddis "Helen" in A Conspiracy of Kings, when they're both watching Sophos leave in Attolia (page 208). I never realized that we hadn't heard Gen use "Helen" until that page. Do you guys think there is any significance in that?

And while we're on the topic of inter-changeable names here, is there more significance in the way Megan uses everyone's names? In the middle of A Conspiracy of Kings (when it's told through third person) I noticed that Sophos is usually referred to as Sounis. And Not just that everyone calls him Sounis, but when he speaks or thinks it's written as "thought Sounis" or "Said Sounis." Also, Megan mixes up Gen and Attolis. At first I thought she only used Attolis when all four monarchs were very formal and whatnot, but the conversation between Eddis and Gen (page 208 again) is very private and intimate, and both "Gen" and "Attolis" are used there too.

Thoughts? 

Comments

[zedmeister.livejournal.com]

That was actually one of the things that really bugged me in ACoK. I thought it was just sloppy PoV (point of view) writing. It woul have made much more sense for Sophos to be referred to Sophos, rather than Sounis, in intimate situations, especially since he's the narrator. It seemed like the intrusion of a third person omnscient PoV when it should have all been third person limited.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Well - beloved cousin or not, formality tended to prevail in royal families, and Eddis outranked Gen considerably until he became a king himself. So in Thief and QoA it wouldn't have been appropriate for him to use her first name (and it's considerable cheek for the Magus to when he calls her Helen!). I don't recall their speaking in KoA (time for a re-read!!)

That's my guess, anyway. Properly speaking, the Eddisian Nannies should quit calling Gen by name and should address him as Attolis (and *not* as "his royal petulance"), but I suppose old habits are hard to break.

I don't know about the significance of when the various names are used in ACoK. Maybe it's just a matter of wanting to vary things a bit so you don't just see the same name over and over and over again. After all, what's the point in having more than one name if you can't use 'em all?

[ayvara.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...good question! I took the fact that Gen called her Helen as a sign they are now on more equal footing - not just because they are both monarchs, but because Gen is now fully an adult and not a younger cousin who Eddis has to scold or look out for. As for the other point, calling Sophos Sounis amd Gen Attlolis made sense to me as those titles signify very important, revelant parts of their character. Plus, it would seem strange to always call Eddis and Attolia by their formal titles and never use Gen and Sophos's.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought, that it was to fit with Eddis and Attolia's titles, which had already been used all throughout the preceding books.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

I was surprised by the the Sounis thing, too, and my first reaction was awww, but I want to read about Sophos, not Sounis!

I think, though, that the country title/name/things definitely have significance, specifically the significance of truly being a king or queen. Gen isn't "Attolis" in KoA because the books about him becoming the King of Attolia. He's referred to as "the king," but only because there's no way around it ... like, Costis and the guards think of him as the king, but they don't think of him as having that connection to, embodiment of, and power over their country that the title "Attolis" suggests.

That doesn't really explain why Sophos is Sounis from the first bit of 3rd person reference. Maybe it's because ACoK is a general hero's journey/personal growth story as well as a becoming-truly-king story, or maybe it has something to do with the way Sophos thinks of being king.

I think I was talking to Drashizu about this awhile back, but it seems like mwt is very concious in how she refers to the characters. I think Gen is the best example ... his naming shows his growth, since he's Gen (just through the others' reference) in TT, Eugenides (in the narrative for the majority of the time) and Gen (called that by those closest to him) in QoA, and mostly Eugenides or the more distant "the king" in KoA. I think he's only called Gen in the narrative 2 or 3 time in KoA, once or twice with the Eddisian Nannies, and once after The Dance Scene. These Gens sort of come up in the times where he's most in his element, whereas in the rest of the book he's in such a new and isolated situation.

And then in ACoK he's EVERYTHING! Attolis, Eugenides, Gen, the king of Attolia, the former Thief of Eddis ("I seem to remember stealing your oatmeal," said the former Thief of Eddis.).... It makes sense because ACoK isn't really about him, and he embodies all of the names.

Hmm, the Helen thing, though.... I'm not sure, but I kind of assumed that we never heard Gen call her that before because it just never came up, that when he's comforting her when Sophos leaves we hear him address her like that because she needs to be reminded that he knows her and is there for her, or something? And maybe he doesn't call her that in QoA because it would ruin the whole "What's worse than Attolia being named peace?!" joke later.

I love topics like this! I hope that all made sense!

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Ok, I really love this Gen Name topic, so while I'm at it, here's a list of the possible meaning of all the name-ish things he has:

Gen -- He's first introduced to us as Gen. It's his entire identity as he shows it in The Thief. He tells Sophos and the Magus to stop calling him that (annoyed because of the way it was tied up with all the stuff he had to do in his plan?), but they don't. :) Those closest to him (Eddis, Sophos, Magus, cousins? Do Galen and the MOW call him by any name, as far as we know?) call him this. In KoA and ACoK, it seems to come up when he's comfortable in a situation (??? evidence? ehh?)

Eugenides -- It's a title! It's his true identity in The Thief and his title in QoA! Eddis calls him Eugenides! I think he's referred to as it for the majority of the references in QoA... It's how Attolia thinks of him, at least in QoA (later we can only assume that she starts calling him all kinds of lovely pet names, right?)

The Thief/ The Thief of Eddis -- His title, which he has a changing relationship with in QoA. He's noticeably referred to as the thief when he's kidnapping the Magus. :)

The king/The king of Attolia -- Shows that he's king in name, if not fully king, in KoA. Used a lot in ACoK also?

Attolis -- It's techinically his name since the beginning of KoA, but we only hear about it from Attolia ("I would see my lord Attolis." scaaary moment) and see it written in the oracle scene. He's referred to it in ACoK because by then he's become the King of Attolia.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I like this analysis. I agree with all of it, and I think I think these things, subconsciously, every time MWT uses one or the other name or title to refer to him.

[kulai-raito.livejournal.com]

Yes, I pretty much interpreted as that too. So this does mean that Gen married into the 'woman-side' of the family right, as unconventional as it be considered? Even for back then but I know we talking about 'crown' here but I don't know how many instances of that in history..

I do admit, I still adjust imagining Sophos as Sounis a bit.

Good time for re-read and reflection! I just re-read all four books too very recently, coincidentally I realized its a good time to re-read as tomorrow marks the two years release of Acok - March 23! Can't believe I need to celebrate that as an anniversary date hahaha....and how many more to come...

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about that anniversary too! I can't believe it's been two years. A lot has happened since ACoK. More importantly, this means we must be getting closer to the next book...maybe only three (or two!) more years? Hopefully?

[kulai-raito.livejournal.com]

Oo I can't predict that, perhaps Moira will tell us.
Yes, I almost feel like there should be a post for 2yr in counting celeb., and then after list everything we could ever dream of in the 5th book squeeeee! XD

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

YES someone should make an anniversary post about 5th book wishes. I'm hoping for some more inter-monarch action. I think it's just too cute seeing Gen, Attolia, Eddis, and Sophos all getting together. Buddies for life, I tell you, and the paragon of successful marriages.

You said you just re-read the books recently also--any new thoughts/feelings you came up with?

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I think that both of Gen's and Eddis' country and personal names are used during that scene because in ACoK, they're both very important to the story as people and as rulers, since Sophos is deeply affected by his personal connections to them and by their countries' political concerns.

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

Awesome analysis about Gen! =D Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for...

The reason why the whole Helen deal jumped out at me was because I realized...have we even ever heard Gen speak to Eddis directly? I mean, I don't think there's any part in the books where he uses even Eddis to call her or something. If he ever uses a title--which I think is only once or twice, and only in QoA TT--he calls her "My Queen." It's not just that Gen uses the name Helen, it's that it's one of the very few times he calls her by any name.

[lylassandra.livejournal.com]

Re: Helen-- I think Gen's using her "personal" name on purpose, as a way of comforting her and speaking to *her* as a person, and not as Eddis.

As for the other uses, I'd have to go back and look at them point-by-point, but as far as I recall noticing, they were always supporting whatever point about the character was being made at the time. Not looking it up, but in the scene where Gen wakes Sophos up in the middle of the night, the choice of which of their names to use definitely corresponded with some of the dialogue.

[loquaciousquark.livejournal.com]

I agree with lylassandra. It seemed to indicate to me that whenever she used the title over the informal name, MWT was emphasizing the political role over the personal, and that even when they were just talking Gen to Helen, they were still there in a political, royal capacity rather than the personal one. Plus, it's like Sophos says at the beginning of ACoK: he's Sounis, now, not Sophos. He doesn't really get to be Sophos anymore, just like Gen doesn't get to be Gen so much.

(If this doesn't make sense, I'll have to fix it later, sorry; I have to fly away to work!)

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I have nothing to add to the excellent comments here, except that I enjoyed the part in ACoK where Sohpos's mother gently rebukes her daughters when they do not refer to their uncle as their-uncle-who-is-Sounis. Seems like it's a part of the culture that royalty is referred to in a very specific way.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Haha, yeah me too, nothing to add--what they said! Each name used reminds us of an aspect of that character's.... character.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I think that is the first time we hear Gen call her Helen, because before this he has always called her "my Queen". I do think it shows that they're on more equal ground now --both fully adults in adult roles. However, Gen's "Helen" also sounds more formal to me. Not politically formal, like a title would be, but sort of correct, like using someone's name instead of the pet name you usually use. This is because "my Queen" sounded very intimate and personal to me. We've been told by Costis how "my Queen" is an address that expresses the speaker's love and loyalty for his queen, as opposed to the more impersonal "Your Majesty", but I think above and beyond that in Gen and Helen's case it also encapsulated their relationship, which was really about him serving her out of personal love and loyalty, and her protecting and loving him back out of the same (their political and personal relationships were basically one). Now that's different. He doesn't serve her in that way anymore, but he still loves her nonetheless, so he uses her name.

I get fixed on names as something that automatically evokes the essence of whatever character. I had a lot of trouble with Eugenides becoming "the king" in KoA --I hated it every time! Now it doesn't bother me quite so much, because I know this is just Costis's limited perspective on him, and we can see (or think) around it if we know more about Gen than he does. The switch to "Sounis" didn't bother me so much, I think for the mundane reason that it also starts with "S" and sounds/looks similar on the page.