Question about Relius in "King Of Attolia"

[sunshinebutter.livejournal.com]

Hi everyone, 

Though this may be have an obvious answer - I have read and re-read the series quite a number of times and love it to bits but the betrayal of Relius the Master of Spies I never quite understood and how Eugenides knew that he was lying when he accused him. 

I believe that I may be reading over it too quickly and not understanding the subtleties that are important to understanding it so I appreciate any feedback on this question; its been plaguing me for a while now. 

I'm expecting almost everyone to have an answer to this. 

Thanks. 

sunshinebutter

Comments

[coyul.livejournal.com]

It takes one to know one, and Eugenides is one hell of a liar. Plus, he'd been watching the Attolians for a while, so I bet he knew every tell Relius had.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

This. I think Gen is Attolia's new spymaster, spying on her spies.

It took me a while to realize Attolia believed Gen right away. She wasn't angry at him because she thought he was falsely accusing Relius (like some of her suspicious court would have - believing this was Gen removing one of her last loyal allies/his opponent) but because of the very sudden and public way Gen announced it to her. It shocked her - the hurtful betrayal and the realization that she'd totally missed something very, very important to her country's safety. Another instance of Gen being a hero without feeling very much like one. It's tough, being right (to summarize something Costis said in KoA).

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Yikes - you expect an answer from almost all of us ...I don't have an answer! I'm glad you asked because when I though about it, I couldn't figure out how he knew either, so I'll be reading everyone else responses with great interest - Thanks!

Are you new here? If so, Welcome, and if not, it's nice to meet you =D

[sunshinebutter.livejournal.com]

I love all your points. Thank you.

What I still don't get, was what did Relius do wrong? I know he lied but what else about it was so hurtful to the country as you've said freenarnian

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

Hi! It's nice to meet you!

Relius was guilty of lying when he said he didn't know why he was unaware that the spies were caught. He had a very good idea of how it happened, and he knew it was because of his own shortcomings. (Having a lady friend he had known/confided in for a period of time who had *suddenly* left him, and he did not think that she could have been used as a spy for the Mede - and not taking precautions against what she might know/have to use against him.) Gen wanted Irene to stop him before he took poison to avoid the Queen's rage because he needed Relius to be a friend to Irene, because he was one of the few people she could be herself around.

Anyway, I hope that answered your question.

[loquaciousquark.livejournal.com]

I agree with the points raised by 1221bookworm, but you also have to realize that the issue is not just Relius lying. Relius was Attolia's master of spies, not only for Attolia the queen, but Attolia the country. When he was talking to his lover in the night, he wasn't just putting himself at risk; he was jeopardizing his sovereign ruler and the entire country by telling state secrets to an enemy spy--and worse, he wasn't some random guy whispering crazy rumors that wouldn't amount to anything--he was doing it as the Master of Spies for an entire country, a position that Relius knew depended on being able to both glean important information from ordinary situations and, more importantly, keep secrets. This is way bigger than Relius playing footsie with a giggly girlfriend. The guy committed treason, even if he didn't mean to, and on top of that monumental mistake, he made it so much worse because when he realized what he'd done--betrayed his queen, betrayed his country, and betrayed the responsibilities of his position--he didn't come forward to turn himself in to Attolia. Instead, he tried to destroy the evidence and kill himself, because he decided it would be easier to end his life than own up to his mistake to someone who counted him as a friend.

So Attolia's fury has a couple of prongs. First, there's Eugenides, who basically calls out her oldest of very few friends as a traitor both to the country and to her, and he does it in public, where she can neither deny the accusation nor undermine his authority (without undoing everything she's been trying to accomplish with him, anyway).

Secondly, there's the fact of the betrayal itself. She knows Eugenides is telling her the truth simply because she trusts him, but that also means that he's ripped away her trust in Relius, a huge pillar of her support, in one fell swoop. Now her authority has been called into question, and she has to handle Relius's very personal betrayal in a cold, levelheaded, objective manner, when she can barely handle the realization that one of her only friends has unintentionally (and metaphorically) stabbed her in the back.

And then lastly, of course, she's suddenly having to deal with the fact that Relius would rather die than tell her what he did wrong. I don't think she understands at this point that Relius tries to kill himself because of the overwhelming guilt he feels at betraying someone he loves; instead, she sees an old friend committing suicide rather than coming forward to tell her, who considered him a very valuable friend, the honest truth. She has so few people she can be honest with in such a poisonous palace that I think it comes as a devastating blow for her to suddenly think Relius has decided he can't be honest with her.

AND NOW I have to run; sorry if this is a little disjointed, but I've been trying to finish this comment in bits and pieces over the last three hours, so hopefully it makes sense. :)

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Yes to all this. I would only add that I think Relius attempted suicide not only because of betrayal/guilt but mostly because he was afraid. He, of all people, knew what would happen to him if he were caught. He would be tortured and most likely killed, as he had--for years--taught Attolia to do to those who betrayed her. He would force her to torture one of the few people she trusted. She would have to do it for the sake of her country and her sovereignty, and he knew how much this would cost her.

When I clicked on the "relius" tag, it took me to this lovely, lovely chapter-by-chapter discussion we had of King of Attolia (http://sounis.livejournal.com/334457.html), a while back.

[loquaciousquark.livejournal.com]

OOOOH, yes! I completely forgot about how afraid he was, but yes, that's definitely a huge factor!

Also, this is making me desperately want to reread that book again and man I do not have time for that right now AUGH

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Oh, me too! but first I'd have to read QoA, but first I'd have to read Thief, then I'd have to read ACoK...ack. Maybe this summer!

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

loquaciousquark described what Relius did perfectly. And I would just add that Gen called out Relius so publicly not to be mean but because he had no other choice. He knew what Relius was going to do next. I think Attolia probably realized that's why he had to do it that way too. I wonder though if she fully appreciated it at the time or not. Relius dead by his own hand meant she didn't have to "question" him. It would have made things easier on her, but she would have been haunted forever wondering how deep the betrayal had went.

[sunshinebutter.livejournal.com]

Wowsers - Thanks everyone for your input. Some of the suggestions and critques here I hadn't thought about before. Coyul - love the logic. At least when he tells the truth you'll know it. Booksrgood4u - No, I'm not new here but I post very rarely. I'm glad that you couldn't figure it out exactly as well. 121bookworm - Though I knew of the considerations that Eugenides took for his wife, it strangely didn't occur to me, I initially sort of thought about it being a moment that forshadowed the sort of dramatic decisions that he made with the house of Erondities and in one of the more in your face ways of being "King". loquaciousquark - Three hours! What do you do when you're not on Thief chat forums! Thank you, I read and re-read it to make it worth your while. When I first read it, I couldn't understand how a lie about a source was so treasonous but I understand that more clearly now. checkers65477 - great point. I'm looking to reading that chat now.
Thanks everyone!