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queensthiefLeng and were chatting over in Chatzy about characters (in Finnikin of the Rock) and I wondered...
How much does a likable character play into loveable books? And vise versa. For example have you ever shot down a perfectly good plot because you didn't like the main character? What sort of characters make you want to hurl one book across the room while others sit right by your bedside, and recieve warm hugs before long trips? (well...I hug my books..)
I will give an example. I don't know why-but I don't normally like characters that causally swear. Now-I know Gen does it all the time-but I mean characters using overly inappropiate language is usualy a turn off, I know we do daily. I know people that swear without evening having reason. It's just harder for me to come around to liking characters that are dropping the f-bomb and other words consistantly. So if I pick up a book where the main character uses crude language-the book itself is already at a disadvantage of me liking it.
So, that's my example, you don't have to agree. But I'd love to hear about your book "turns ons/ turn offs" in terms of characters !
How much does a likable character play into loveable books? And vise versa. For example have you ever shot down a perfectly good plot because you didn't like the main character? What sort of characters make you want to hurl one book across the room while others sit right by your bedside, and recieve warm hugs before long trips? (well...I hug my books..)
I will give an example. I don't know why-but I don't normally like characters that causally swear. Now-I know Gen does it all the time-but I mean characters using overly inappropiate language is usualy a turn off, I know we do daily. I know people that swear without evening having reason. It's just harder for me to come around to liking characters that are dropping the f-bomb and other words consistantly. So if I pick up a book where the main character uses crude language-the book itself is already at a disadvantage of me liking it.
So, that's my example, you don't have to agree. But I'd love to hear about your book "turns ons/ turn offs" in terms of characters !
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Date: 6/12/12 12:18 am (UTC)I totally know that I was in the minority when it comes to Finnikin of the Rock. For me though, characterization is VERY important. And I don't want to get very prescriptive here, because when I say that I don't like a character because he or she did so and so, I understand that it rubs other people the wrong way when it is that exact quality that makes them love those characters.
But it's quite variable for me too. Some of my favourite characters are so different from each other. Instead, I'll just copy and paste something I wrote in my journal a few weeks back, which I think explained what kind of characters make me love a story.
I find that the books that really become my favourite books are those with characters that are most similar to me, or at least has a quality about them that I admire. Say, Gen. Eugenides cannot be any more different from me, but I still like Queen's Thief Series. But it is characters like Sophos that make me feel like I can be a hero too. And just like when you're in a new school where you're searching for someone you can be friends with, someone you can sit beside during class, that's the kind of reading experience I have now. Every book is like a new school, and if I can't find anyone whom I want to be friends with, or whom I admire enough that sitting in lectures won't be such a bore, chances are, I'm not going to care enough to actually read the story.
I don't know if the whole "friends" analogy comes across very well, but as a reader, you're kind of in the adventure *with* them. I remember having a trip to Boracay where the company I was with was greatly irritating and insulting, and even though I went to such a beautiful place, it was one of the worst trips I ever had.
So for me, characterization does affect whether I would like the book or not. =D
I mean, of course, there are other ways to read a story. Some people say we should read to get new experiences and new views from people different from us. And I agree, but at the same time, I'm usually not curious about people I don't like. So that's the part where I pretty much stop caring.
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Date: 6/12/12 12:31 am (UTC)Don't get me wrong, though, I don't need my characters to be absolute saints all of the time. In fact, some of my favorite characters, like Froi and Tom from Finnikin/Froi of the Exiles and The Piper's Son, respectively, absolutely put me through the wringer emotionally. We get to see them at their lowest points, but I think that makes their redemption so much more sweeter and satisfying. They do, however, have to have some redeeming qualities, something that makes me want to root for them.
I like characters who share my better traits, like my snarky sense of humor, but I find it (literally) painful to read about characters who have too many of my less-endearing traits. Maybe that's why I wanted to throttle Bella Swan most of the time -- it was like reliving my high school self all over again (not that I went catatonic when some guy dumped me or gave birth to a creepy baby, mind you).
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Date: 6/12/12 01:47 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 6/18/12 01:01 am (UTC)I have to say, though, the first time I read Finnikin I thought I had a hard time following all the details (what the different prophecies said, who was who, etc.) because I didn't pay close enough attention, and after rereading, I don't think it's me at all. It's just a darn complicated book that's hard to keep straight. Referring back to the map, alone, drove me crazy. So much going on!
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Date: 6/12/12 02:02 am (UTC)I think there are examples out there of plots that compensate for poorer characterization, but they're much fewer.
So what draws me to a character? I definitely like being able to relate to a character, though funnily enough, I'm much more likely to get annoyed with a character that reminds me too much of myself. 0:) I think believably , in the end, is the most important thing for me. Okay, so you've got a mega-thief in a fantasy setting, all cunning and quirky eyebrows and posh maneuvering by moonlight... make me believe he could exist, if not in the real world, then at least within the framework of the story. It can be done, obviously. ;) But I read a book recently in which the author kept reminding the reader how street wise and clever and tough the main character was, in between demonstrations of the opposite... the character constantly made mistakes that even I as the tender reader could see coming, kept having to be rescued, kept getting confused, making the wrong impression... leaving me with a very murky image of who this character was supposed to be. In the end, I just didn't believe it.
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Date: 6/12/12 02:50 pm (UTC)I've read books like that and I hate it! I usually finish the book, but sometimes not, and it makes me think the author, as well as the character, is an idiot. I'm not likely to read more by the same author. It's something I call the "Lucy factor" after Lucille Ball on the Lucy show--where plot development depends on Lucy behaving like an idiot. I used to have to leave the room when my grandmother was watching it, because I couldn't stand to see her bungle her way into trouble. But it must not bother most people; the Lucy Show was very popular, and I sometimessee books recommended here that drove me crazy that way when I was reading them.
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Date: 6/12/12 06:17 pm (UTC)Another book like this is the Bartimaeus trilogy. I loved the first three, not just because of Bartimaeus or the evil magicians, but because the people felt real. Nathaniel does have some concience, even if he never shows it, Kitty is driven crazy by the other resistence members, and they felt real. Then he adds on another book. This time I hate the main human. She sems too perfect, but when we get into her head all her emotions seem too strong to be real. (this might also be that I hate characters who are too much like me) Also the ninja skilz! Why do people always choose throwing knives! Find a good weapon for once. Needless to say, I did not like that book, mostly because I hated the human. I ended up skimming throught and reading only the Bartemaeus chapters.
So, yes. If I dislike the character, I dislike the book. Even if it would otherwise be awesome.
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Date: 6/13/12 03:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/13/12 12:32 am (UTC)I don't think I've liked any of John Green's characters, but I've read most of his books - completely. He's a great writer, and I like his ideas.
On the other hand, I just read Among Others, and while I loved the idea of the book, I didn't enjoy reading it because I really didn't like the character - and because I got the sense that she wouldn't like me. That might be a sign of great characterization on the author's part and my personal bias coming into play - but that was a book I disliked because of the main character.
Finnikin and Froi are both great examples because I don't like them because of the characters; in Finnikin, I liked the book despite the characters. (In Froi, things got better - I didn't like them, but I understood them.)
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Date: 6/13/12 03:34 am (UTC)Some people have already mentioned this, but I also find that I'm not overly fond of characters who are too similar to myself. They tend to bring my attention to certain traits that I would rather forget that I have. On the other hand, characters I can't relate to at all usually don't win me over either. I guess there's a happy medium. In Gen's case, he hits it right on. I've never met a character I loved more than him.
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Date: 6/13/12 07:37 am (UTC)But from time to time, I do get surprised by a new character type and like them immediately. And I do find a book with an abysmal main character but amazing plot. There are silver linings to everything, I suppose.
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Date: 6/13/12 06:21 pm (UTC)no subject
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Date: 6/13/12 05:54 pm (UTC)This is why I liked the LOTR movies, but only got 110 pages into the book. Not entirely on topic, but sorta?
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Date: 6/13/12 10:15 pm (UTC)But on the subject of main characters, I may be the one person here who prefers the character to be close to myself. Which may be why I love this series so much--because Gen is so irrevocably similar. And that's really all I can think of at the moment.
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Date: 6/14/12 12:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/20/12 07:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/18/12 05:59 pm (UTC)I don't have to love characters, but they need something to draw us in or engage us.
Two other essentials are a strong sense of place and some humor. I love stories in which the place itself is a character. mwt does a good bit of that with her landscapes & architecture. _Dune_, on the other hand, I could taste the grit between my teeth, but was never sure I wanted to be there, even after 3-4 readings. The politics & intrigues are very well done, but there's absolutely no humor at all [except in the filk songs, but those are whole other stories--and, yes, it *does* make my brown eyes blue--weg].