Hi and who is Philonikes?
Jun. 16th, 2012 04:58 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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queensthiefHi, I've been lurking on Sounis for a few months now and I finally worked up the courage to make myself a LiveJournal account thing so I can join. So I just want to apologize in advance for all the mistakes I'll probably make trying to use it. But I love Megan Whalen Turner's books and all your discussions so much I decided to join anyway. I started with The King of Attolia and really liked it. I then read The Thief, was somehow still completely surprised by the ending, and fell in love. But there is one thing I just don't understand, and I know you guys will be able to help me. As they are leaving the capital of Sounis, Gen calls out to say hi to his friend Philonikes. On the first read, it seems like Gen just wants to say hi to his friend, but on each reread it makes less sense to me. So, what's going on? Is Gen (1) saying hi to his friend, (2) testing the magus to see what he can get away with, (3) testing the magus to find out if the trip is a secret (and therefore probably to go find Hamiathes Gift), (4) sending a message back to Eddis saying that he got out of jail and all is going according to plan and don't worry, or (5) something that I haven't thought of yet? And also, how on earth do you pronounce Philonikes? Help me, please!
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Date: 6/16/12 10:12 pm (UTC)About your questions:
(1) Yes, that was at least technically what he was doing.
(2) Yes, he might have just wanted to aggravate the magus to further his appearance of bratty street kid.
(3) Yes, he probable wanted to guage the magus's reaction to things.
(4)I'm not so sure on this one, I thinkGen was acting entirely alone - not even telling his father or Eddis what he was up to, so I doubt he would have any contacts in Sounis to bring a message to Helen.
(5) The only other thing I'm thinking is that he was just enjoying his newfound freedom - being out of jail had to put him ina generally friendly mood - at least to his friends...
And let's see....Philonikes....Possibly Fill-ON-ick-keys? That's all I got...
One thing about that scene that I had wondered about was whether or he was actually Gen's freind...I mean, he was only out bragging for a short time before he got arrested, and he was foreign, so how many friends did he really have in Sounis? And I don't think the guy acknowledged him, so I kind of wondered if he just called out a random name at a random person to see what the magus would do...
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Date: 6/16/12 10:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/16/12 10:46 pm (UTC)Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoëpist, and Philological Busybody
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Date: 6/16/12 10:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 12:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 02:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 03:22 am (UTC)On the other hand, if Gen was speaking Greek, what he actually said might have been ὦ Φιλόνικες (or maybe ὦ Φιλονίκη, I'm not sure exactly how it would decline), where the vocative involves a weakening of the last vowel from a long e to a short e and a corresponding shift of the accent.
EDIT: Of course, I realized as soon as I left this, that there is a possibly more obvious model for the pronunciation. Polynikes, the son of Oedipus and brother of Antigone, had his name go into Latin and thence into European languages at an early date, such that it's often spelled "Polynices" and pronounced "Polly-NICE-eez". (But his brother Eteocles is always eh-TEE-uh-kleez and never eh-tee-AH-kleez...) But on the model of Polynikes, Philonikes might not be from philo + nike (Φιλονίκης) but from philo + neike (Φιλονείκες), (ει was indistinguishable from a long iota as early as the Roman period, which is why it isn't reflected in the transliteration) and not be a lover of victory but a lover of strife.
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Date: 6/17/12 11:25 am (UTC)Wow! So MUCH knowledge here in Sounis! I wanted to take Greek in college because my Dad said it was a beautiful language, but my major was pre-veterinary so my advisor said I wouldn't have time. Then I ended up not going that way after all, so I could have, if I'd only known.
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Date: 6/17/12 12:00 am (UTC)I'd say Fill-oh-NYE-keys, or possibly Fill-oh-NEE-keys. (Like Aphrodite).
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Date: 6/17/12 12:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 11:32 am (UTC)P.S. I usually comment after a bunch of people already have so I can say, "What he or she said!" It's just easier that way.
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Date: 6/17/12 09:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 11:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 06:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 09:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 11:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/17/12 07:06 pm (UTC)And I always kind of assumed it was Feel-o-NIY-kees.
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Date: 6/18/12 04:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/18/12 04:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/18/12 12:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/18/12 12:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/19/12 03:45 am (UTC)Either way, my impression was: Gen's father knew, but Eddis didn't.
I think it was the MoW who left the coins on Gen's desk, surreptitiously. I assume he didn't want to worry Eddis or get her hopes up in case it didn't work and/or Gen was gone a long time. And I don't think he knew HOW Gen would do it, just that he would try. Maybe it's not the kind of endeavour (lol) you publicize to your queen before you've actually succeeded at it, seeing as it was a way of proving and establishing himself as her thief, not something he was doing once he was already established.
I don't know if the MoW was keeping tabs on his son once he had gone, though. It's possible Philonikes could still have been a spy reporting directly to the MoW. I like the idea of #4, it's very interesting! Personally, I have always assumed #3. I've also sort of doubted the existence of Philonikes, seeing as we never hear about him again. But now I will revise my opinion!
Also: now I'm curious. How is it worded, exactly? Gen doesn't outright lie in the book, so if he says "I saw my friend Philonikes" then Philonikes must be a real guy. But if he says something less direct, maybe he made the guy up. ??
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Date: 11/5/14 09:17 pm (UTC)Later, "I turned backward to wave to Philonikes disappearing around a corner, but I am not sure that he recognized me."
He also tells the magus that "Philo's a friend of mine. I was going to say hello."
Does that help?
And yes, it's in The Thief.
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Date: 6/18/12 10:09 pm (UTC)I agree with points 3 and 4. I don't think Eddis knew where he was exactly. They had apportioned him a sum of money to find Hamiatha's gift, but they didn't know how he was planning on doing it. I don't think he knew until he got to Sounis, and poked around a bit in the Magus' paperwork, and probably listened in on a few conversations. Then he dreamed up his harebrained sceme and set to work. Somebody said that he probably just called out any name to anybody, and that was why the person looked shocked to see him calling out to them, and I think that is a strong possibility!
And as for the pronunciation, I will quietly back out and let others attempt it.
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Date: 6/20/12 05:19 pm (UTC)We don't know how long Eugenides was in Sounis before he stole the king's seal. He had to have been there long enough to search the palace for Hamiathes gift before he gave up and came up with the scheme TT covers. (Doesn't he tell us he spent some time sleeping on a chest in the king's treasury during this search? I can't remember how it is worded.)
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Date: 6/22/12 11:20 pm (UTC)