Is Gen a Pathological Liar?

[openedlocket.livejournal.com]

I was watching a SciShow episode  about the science of lying. The host, Hank Green, talked a bit about pathological liars and how they're so good at lying because, for a while, they actually believe their own lies. I'm not entirely sure about the psychological aspect of it but it made me wonder about Gen. He's famous in three countries for his lies, tells fibs even if he doesn't necessarily have to (especially about certain earrings) and Eddis said once in QoA that Gen even lies to himself at time. Do you think he fits in that category or is he just REALLY good at what he does?

Comments

[rattyjol.livejournal.com]

(I'm mostly focusing on The Thief in this, because that's the book I think gives the best view of Gen.)

According to Wikipedia, pathological lying is defined as "falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime," and the average onset age is 16, which is about Gen's age during The Thief. The characteristics are:

1. The stories told are not entirely improbable and often have some element of truth. They are not a manifestation of delusion or some broader type of psychosis: upon confrontation, the teller can admit them to be untrue, even if unwillingly.
2. The fabricative tendency is long lasting; it is not provoked by the immediate situation or social pressure as much as it is an innate trait of the personality.
3. A definitely internal, not an external, motive for the behavior can be discerned clinically: e.g. long lasting extortion or habitual spousal battery might cause a person to lie repeatedly, without the lying being a pathological symptom.
4. The stories told tend toward presenting the liar favorably. For example, the person might be presented as being fantastically brave, knowing or being related to many famous people.

So, relating this to Gen:

1. This applies. Gen's story in The Thief is believable. He claims to be a thief with Eddisian roots, and his family situation is all true, if simplified. It's not a delusion; he made it up consciously.
2. This one's more iffy. He seems to lie generally when the situation calls for it, whether that's not being beat up by his cousins or trying to fool the whole Attolian court. But then again, he wouldn't be Gen if he didn't lie sometimes.
3. Doesn't apply. Gen's lies generally have external motives.
4. Gen is pretty much the opposite of this one; his lies, or at least the ones we see, seem to be diminishing his merit instead of improving it. He seems to prefer being underestimated, instead of boasting and embellishing.

Wikipedia also says that pathological lying "may also present as false memory syndrome, where the sufferer genuinely believes that fictitious events have taken place, regardless that these events are fantasies." Generally, this isn't true. Gen knows his lies are just lies. But we have to remember that The Thief is supposed to be Gen himself writing about finding Hamiathes' Gift, and yet he chose to write it in such a way that the readers think he is who he says he is, even though we're in his head. He also wrote the book specifically for people who already know who he is -- I think he mentioned in ACoK that Eddis was the only person to read it, and he was planning to send a copy to Sophos -- so why would he choose to narrate the story that way, knowing that the reader already knows that he's lying? It's possible that in his months of solitude in the king's prison he went just a bit crazy. After all that time with only himself for company, going over and over the speech he was going to give to the Eddisian court and fabricating his story for when the magus came, maybe he buried himself a little too deeply in the new identity and for a while at the beginning of the Thief really believed that Gen the Sounisian was real, in which case it could be considered pathological lying.

Wikipedia also says that "it is when an individual consistently lies for no personal gain. The lies are commonly transparent and often seem rather pointless." Which Gen's lies are generally not, unless he's complaining.

So I think . . . maybe? But leaning towards no, Gen is not a pathological liar.

oh gods I'm sorry this became a monster

[openedlocket.livejournal.com]

Loved this! Didn't expect such a long, in-depth response on the subject.

One thing I've always wondered about...I recall that Gen sometimes lies very casually, and I can never be sure if he's teasing or genuinely trying to fool someone. His "What earrings?" to Eddis is always confusing to me in terms of his intention. Did he really steal those earrings and doesn't want her to know, did he steal them and knows that she knows so he's just teasing her or did he not really steal those earrings? Does it fit in the category of pathological lying?

Also, thank you for enlightening me on the fact that the Thief is the account Gen wrote for Eddis. For some reason, I never picked up on that //headdesks self

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Hmm...No great deal of research is going into this answer! Anyway, I don't think that Gen is pathological - to me, that implies some sort of mental condition that compels a person to lie. Gen lies very consciously, but also tell the truth, and like Helen said, you might mistake his lies for truth, but you'll never mistake his truth for a lie. Also, he's very concerned about how to get Irene to trust him, since he's famous in three countries for his lies, and if he were a pathological liar I don't think he would care. I think Gen uses his skill at lying as another tool in his work as a thief - like lock picks and pry bars XD

And I think that most of his lies hold a grain of truth so that it is easier for him to keep up the pretense for a long period of time. If he told some tall tale, he would be liable to slip up at some point. In ACoK, he tells Sophos that since he's a terrible liar, it's best if he beleives what he saying. It's the same concept - Gen can keep up pretenses to fool the Magu because Gen beleives that he's Gen, a thief, with Eddisian roots, and a soldier father because that is who he is, just slightly adjusted.

Very interseting question!

[rattyjol.livejournal.com]

I don't actually remember that particular scene, but I'd say it's probably the second one. She knows he stole them, probably the whole palace knows he stole them, but he's not about to admit to stealing them, because that just opens him up to justified retribution.

Ah, yeah, it's never actually said outright, but that's what I've always assumed, since it's from his POV and ends with her making the suggestion.

[chocolate-smash.livejournal.com]

On the earrings bit, I think its the he stole them and knows that she knows and is just teasing.
Also- I disagee about 4. Would it have to be presenting yourself favorably, or would presenting yourself how you want to be seen work as well? Because he does that.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I agree with you! Again, nothing to back it up, but Gen's a calculated liar, really. I think he considers it part of the job description.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

I don't think so, personally. The best textual evidence I can think of off the top of my head is the scene between Irene & Helen in QoA--"I sometimes believe his lies are the truth, but I have never mistaken his truth for a lie. If he needs me to believe him, he has his own way of showing his veracity." It might be mixed up and twisted, but Gen does know the difference between lying and honesty. He just prefers the lie. Interesting question, though!

[openedlocket.livejournal.com]

I didn't think of that scene but it provides some interesting insight. Thanks for that! :D

[openedlocket.livejournal.com]

I think Gen uses his skill at lying as another tool in his work as a thief - like lock picks and pry bars XD

I like that comparison. Puts his lying in an interesting perspective. I always thought it was just something that came naturally to him.

Also like that idea about a grain of truth. Brilliant! Really explains how convincing his lies are even when we're in his head during the first book. Thanks! :D

[icastlecaptured.livejournal.com]

I think this is a really interesting question since there seems to be so much to talk about when it comes to Gen and his lies. What are his motivations for his lies? Are they a necessary calculated move - not a big deal - or are they unhealthy? What about the ways he lies?

When I think about fictional compulsive liars they seem to split into those who enjoy telling tall tales (like Lyra from His Dark Materials) or those who do so for protection (like Alan in the Demon's Lexicon books whose lying habit is like a shield he can't seem to bring himself to put down). Both ways are however, a way of gaining power the liar would never have had otherwise. I think maybe Gen's lies come from a similar place - a need for control.

I think we can all agree Gen likes to be in control of his situation. "I can do anything I want!" is how he's been accustomed to living, and his loss of that in KoA is the reason for his unhappiness. It seems he has to play by another's rules. When he is humiliated by being unwillingly beaten in The Thief his response is a frightening anger that sticks with Sophos (Sophos' inability to respond to his lashing similarly stems I think from his lack of desire to be in charge). Gen wants to manipulate the world into reacting on his terms, and when it doesn't he gets upset. It's been noted that a lot of his lies are actually the truth, just framed in a way that will get others to do what he wants. But even when he's trying to deceive through his behavior (aftermath of KoA assassination attempt, or even goading Costis into hitting him) or telling a bald faced lie (going directly to bed in KoA "what earrings?" in QoA) he's trying to arrange things so others do what he wants, he does what he wants and conversations end on his terms.

I don't know how healthy we could say this desire for everyone to unwittingly play the game on his terms is, but he's good at it and it's certainly been an integral part of Gen's character and part of what makes him magnificent in his flaws. I wonder how lying will play a role in future books. The last two had themes of accepting a more open and limited lifestyle but Gen still delights in trickery. Will he become a healthier person or a more magnificent one? Perhaps he can manage both.

[openedlocket.livejournal.com]

Fascinating stuff! I never though of the lying to have a psychological purpose to them. I guess it can also tie in with his fear of becoming too enamored with power. He's already shown (through the subtlety of a lie) that he could wield it and that he possibly enjoys doing so. It's amazing how complex Gen can be and how we can learn about him that isn't stated in words.

Thanks again for this comment! :) It really got me thinking. Now I'm really looking forward to taking up psychology in college.

[(Anonymous)]

wow! Great discussion! I love the points people are making, but I'll just quickly add my view --
Gen? Pathological? Absolutely not! He controls his lies, his lies do not control him. And I don't believe he is mentally ill. I've had the bad fortune to run across one or two pathological liars in "real life." And in my -- thankfully limited -- experience they lack Gen's moral core, the truth at his center. Which is what I love about him! And it's amazing how often he lies by telling the literal truth-- particularly when dealing with people who are equally dishonest, but not so smart. The King of Sounis, for example. Oh, I think there's a whole book to be written about this. But Gen, pathological? No! just ....No.

PS I loved the point about Alan Ryves above. I spent 2 books thinking he was the scariest person I'd read about in ages -- but then I got to love him.

--deirdrej

[openedlocket.livejournal.com]

Everyone seems to have great views on this. I'm so happy to find so many interesting replies on what I thought was a simple question. I've never encountered any real pathological liars for myself but the differences between them and just plain really good liars intrigue me.

Thanks so much for adding your perspective on this :D I think I'll go search more about actual pathological liars so I can see a clearer difference myself