(no subject)

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

Hello! I love the Queen's Thief books, and I'm delighted to find this community here full of people who also like to discuss these brilliant books. That being said, I've come prepared to participate in the time-honored newbie tradition of asking loads and loads of questions, all rather Irene-centric, as she is arguably my favorite character, and the one who confuses me most....

1) First of all, what happened to her mother? I believe all we know is that Attolia Sr had jewelry (either of her own, or part of the royal collection) that was later given to her husband's concubines and then to her daughter? And, if she was a noblewoman, as I guess, why do none of her family ties become relevant for Irene's court? (Or was Attolia Sr the last of her family/a foreigner/of a lower social class?) For that matter, with the exception of Queen Thief (and all we know of her is her parentage, popularity, and predilection for dancing on rooftops) and Sophos' mother, everyone else' mother...doesn't seem to exist? Do we know anything else about any of them?

2) On a completely unrelated note, do we know when, exactly, the Dite/Irene/Gen-in-a-bush encounter happened in relation to the year between TT and QoA? Not to mention the specifics of how that conversation even went--I mean, her obliviousness to romance is one of her most endearing traits, but oh, Irene, how is it even possible to interpret a marriage proposal as a discussion about poetry?

3) Is there a reason why, in the minds of most casual readers I've discussed this with, Irene seems to be remembered only as the beautiful-but-cruel stereotype? I mean, her biggest gripe in QoA when Gen proposes is that he'll let the barons take over, and she objects not because it'll mean she loses power/wealth/comfort, but because they'll be cruel to the people! Not to mention the fact that the books specifically describe her as being quite polite, if formal, to her attendants and other members of the court who haven't schemed against her, not the frothing harpy people imagine...

4) Finally, that rant aside :), I was also thinking about how Irene would come across if she were the King of Attolis rather than the Queen, and that led me to wonder how the series would work if all male characters were female, and all female male. A female Gen would be really interesting--not to mention female Sophos--but I'd be sorry to miss all the richness of the backstory that Attolia and Eddis have. Thoughts?

Anyway, hello again, and hopefully these haven't been discussed too much already!

Comments

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

oh, Irene, how is it even possible to interpret a marriage proposal as a discussion about poetry?

I actually identified with this aspect of Irene's character a LOT. I once cheerfully declined a dinner invitation that most other people on the planet would have recognized as an attempt to ask me out on a date (albeit without actually using the words "I am asking you out on a date", but then I'm sure Dite didn't use the words "I am proposing marriage to you" either), and didn't realize what had been going on until literally months later.

In regard to your fourth point, I was just thinking the other day that if Irene were male and Gen were female, people would be freaking out over how abusive and generally problematic their relationship was. I mean, a powerful, adult king cuts off a teenaged girl's hand because he feels threatened by her cleverness, and then it turns out she's in love with him and still believes there is good in him despite his cruelty to her, so she concocts an elaborate scheme to put him in a position where he basically has to marry her for political reasons, while doing her best to convince him that he's in love with her as well? Clearly this is a monstrous abuse of power on the king's part, clearly the marriage will be a disaster, and clearly this vulnerable young girl is making terrible life choices that she needs to be rescued from by the people who care about her!

In short, I don't think the story would work at all for most readers. Most would be simply squicked and horrified that the author could ever imagine such a relationship could be romantic, under those circumstances...

On the other hand, everybody would be cheering for female Sophos in ACoK, I think. :)

[queenofattolia.livejournal.com]

Most would be simply squicked and horrified that the author could ever imagine such a relationship could be romantic, under those circumstances...

Well, to be honest, I was pretty squicked and horrified by the gender roles as they are, and I also thought that Attolia wielded some pretty monstrous abuses of power which were unconnected to her being a woman. Oh, yeah, I know - "she had to be stronger and more ruthless than a man would have been," yadda yadda - but really - some of her actions were beyond the pale for anyone, and I was appropriately appalled by them.

And considering how young women today react so positively to stalkerish/domineering/cruel "heroes" such as Edward in Twilight and his doppelganger Christian in 50 Shades of Grey, Turner might have sold more books had she inverted the genders of her characters.

Also: are we "cheering for a female Sophos" because the male character is a bit of a wimp for a lot of the story? ::frowns:: Anyone can be a wimp, you know. ETA: Wait - are you saying this because it would have been neat to see a lesbian relationship between the Queen of Sounis and the Queen of Eddis? Because I agree - I would have cheered for that.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Also: are we "cheering for a female Sophos" because the male character is a bit of a wimp for a lot of the story?

Oh gosh, no. I meant "cheering for a female Sophos" because Sophos is awesome, or at least turns out to be in the end. (And I was one of those people who was entirely unimpressed by Sophos in the beginning, but I adored ACoK.)

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

Also: are we "cheering for a female Sophos" because the male character is a bit of a wimp for a lot of the story? ::frowns:: Anyone can be a wimp, you know. ETA: Wait - are you saying this because it would have been neat to see a lesbian relationship between the Queen of Sounis and the Queen of Eddis? Because I agree - I would have cheered for that.

Either/or? I would cheer for female Sophos because in the series--despite the awesome queens present--we never really get to see Eddis or Attolia rise to pauper to powerful ruler in "real time" the way we see Gen (at least in terms of his appearances in the series) or Sophos, so watching Sophia go from captive to queen would be very cool, I think. But Helen/Sophia would probably be as adorable as Helen/Sophos, so that might work as well!

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

....I was just thinking the other day that if Irene were male and Gen were female, people would be freaking out over how abusive and generally problematic their relationship was.

See, I guess (points at queenofattolia's post below), that was part of what I was thinking about when it comes to er, Attolis: So many people bounce off QoA and even the series itself (more fool them) because of Irene's perceived coldness, but really, the cold brutal ruler with a Sekrit Tragic Past whose heart is opened by True Love (TM) is....basically every romantic alpha male hero ever? It's testament to MWT's considerable skill that Irene's backstory is indeed awful enough to explain but not justify/condone her actions, and she is indeed a much deeper and far more interesting character. I have an uneasy suspicion, however, that Attolis would have sat better with some readers--Phantom/Christine, Once Upon A Time's take on Beauty and the Beast, Edward/Belle (as pointed out below) are all fairly popular ships with similar dynamics, for what it's worth.

None of which, of course, changes how skeevy Genia(?)/Attolis would come across, yikes!

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

I know that I'll have a much coherent answer later on, but I just have to say that I agree with your answer for the fourth point. It's why I actually had to work so hard to like Gen/Attolia in the first place.

When I first read QoA and KoA, I was thinking, so just because Gen is male and Attolia's female, it makes their dynamic okay? It makes it romantic? Because you're right; if the genders were reversed, many readers would be repulsed. And that lack of repulsion kind of confused me, because I felt it, and I wondered why others didn't seem to.

[qwentoozla]

1) I assume her mother died, and did not have any powerful family ties, although I just reread QoA and I don't recall that being mentioned! I wonder what happened to Eddis's mother... she could be dead too, or maybe she just hasn't been mentioned. We don't have a lot of mothers around, it's true!

3) I guess Irene is cruel in that she'll do whatever it takes to keep her rule, and is willing to use harsh punishments on people who cross her. She is clearly not a cruel ruler though-- she's not cruel to people who haven't done anything wrong, and she cares about her people. Maybe it's just the fact that she cut off Gen's hand that people remember. Really, she's more sensible and unsentimental than anything else. She's a very complex character, and it is unfortunate if people see her so narrowly. I loved seeing more of her sense of humor in KoA. :)

4) I think, as rj_anderson said, the relationship between Gen and Irene would seem a LOT creepier and more abusive if the genders were reversed. It would be a lot harder to make it work as a relationship that readers would support. (To be honest, it could have seemed like that even with the genders the same as in the books, except that MWT is such a skilled writer that she makes it seem both believable and terribly romantic to me!) It could still make an interesting story, but it would feel very different.

I don't think Gen would be too different as a girl-- I guess her father wouldn't have wanted her to be in the army, though! But Attolia would be in a very different position, wouldn't she? A hypothetical Attolis would be the younger heir to the throne-- when his brother died, he wouldn't have been needed to be married off in a hurry and the succession would have probably remained intact. The throne passing to a younger son after the death of an older one wouldn't be very surprising. Maybe the barons would have still tried to rebel, but if Attolis, being as clever as our Attolia, had decisively put a stop to that, I bet they would fall in line and be much more easily controlled. Attolia's problems with her barons make her much more vulnerable, and the reason they cause her so much trouble seems to be mainly because she's female and they have hopes and worries connected to her marriage. Attolis would have fewer internal difficulties, or different ones at least. I feel like that would change the story a lot!

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

1) Re: Helen's mother still being around? Isn't there some part in QoA when Eddis travels with her cousin, I think, and her paternal aunt and they make sure she's properly attired, etc. It's when she's meeting with Irene near the end, possibly--anyway, I think her mother, if alive, would likely have attended, and by not doing so, can be assumed to have died by then? *shrug* It's just weird, I guess, that the extended Eddisian Royal Family seems to have lost a lot of members rather quickly--but then again, they're related to half the country, after all.

3) *nods* Yeah, I agree that Irene seems to be more defensive of her country than actively cruel, and she seems so much happier (and funnier) in KoA/CoK!

4) I suppose my one question about female!Gen would be that, given that even Helen is expected to learn ladylike manners and so on, exactly how okay would her family be with her swanning off to Attolia and Sounis? And oh, yes, I can see how Attolis wouldn't be anything like Attolia just because he'd be a legitimate heir--I think, for this to work at all, he'd have to be illegitimate or something (maybe the child of one of the old King's concubines?). But even taking that into consideration, it wouldn't be as unheard of for a man to rule alone as it is for Irene. Oops. :)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Welcome, welcome! :) I hope you have fun at Sounis.

1- From what I gather, Irene's mother passed away when she was quite young. I assume that from the fact that Irene's mother seemed to have little to no influence on her daughter's life. Plus, I doubt she would have allowed her jewelry to be passed out to her husband's mistresses if she were still alive. Irene's seems to regard her in her flashbacks as her father's unimportant second wife. Why she was unimportant is a mystery, but we can assume she was a foreigner or simply didn't have important relatives.

2- I think Irene's problem is that before Dite and Gen, no one had ever been interested in her for her. They were always after her throne or her favor as a monarch. I imagine that Dite's proposal was indirect and subtly worded. Thus, Irene didn't understand what he was trying to ask her. But... You can't exactly blame her. Subtly can only be appropriately executed when both parties already have an idea of what's being discussed. Without the frame of reference that everyone else in her court had (i.e. Dite had feelings for the queen.), I could see how she would misunderstand.


Dite: Your Majesty, I have a confession to make.

Irene: ?

Dite: My love is like a red, red rose that's newly sprung in June. My love is like a melody that's sweetly played in tune.

Irene: That's a lovely poem, Dite. You should share it with the court. *wanders off*

Dite: *is devastated*


Disregarding the fact that Dite just blatantly stole from Burns... :)

My guess is he was trying to be romantic, and proposed to her using poetry. She just missed the fact that the poem was about her.

3- Irene fits well into the Ice Queen trope, and fits the Defrosting the Ice Queen trope even better. I think that's what most people tend to remember her as, even though her character is infinitely more complicated. She is reserved and highly calculated, but she's not a sadist. I don't agree with a lot of her more atrocious punishments, but like Helen, I have to be fair and say those were calculated measures to protect her throne, not engagements in selfish cruelty.

However, the audience's initial introduction to Irene is simply an Ice Queen with a lot of power and the unflinching ability to execute that power. I think a lot of readers never get past that first impression.

4- Female!Gen would make for a very interesting story. Especially since the reason Irene needs Gen is because her barons are not comfortable with a woman in power, and her society's double standards pushed her to cruel extremes in order to secure her throne. If Irene were a man, there would have to be another reason why she can't hold power in a stable fashion. Ice Kings are also popular tropes, and they can be sympathetic for some of the same reasons Ice Queen's are. However, I have a really hard time picturing a male Irene.

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

Welcome, welcome! :) I hope you have fun at Sounis.

Thank you! I think I shall. Everyone here has been so kind and friendly and clever, I'm quite overwhelmed! :)

1) Yes, that does make sense. I'm just always curious about characters' Mysteriously Nonexistant Mothers: what they were like, and how they might have affected their offspring's lives if they'd survived and so forth. But there's really not much that Attolia Sr would have added--in fact, even by existing, she'd have taken away from Irene's near-complete isolation--so I can understand why she's not explored too much!

2) Dite: Your Majesty, I have a confession to make.

Irene: ?

Dite: My love is like a red, red rose that's newly sprung in June. My love is like a melody that's sweetly played in tune.

Irene: That's a lovely poem, Dite. You should share it with the court. *wanders off*

Dite: *is devastated*

*joins Gen in snickering fiendishly* But seriously, though, poor Irene--she always seems so flabbergasted by the very thought that someone could have been sincerely in love with her; it even takes Gen--what? one amputation, one abduction, and several near-death experiences to convince her of it.

3) I agree it is easier to condense Attolia down to (Defrosting) Ice Queen, but it still makes me sad--she's such an interesting character, and written so well, I hate to see her reduced to the cliche.

4) I have trouble seeing male!Irene, too, which is part of why I asked about it--getting everyone else's opinion has been really interesting, especially considering gender roles both in- and beyond the text. One question, though: you mentioned: the reason Irene needs Gen is because her barons are not comfortable with a woman in power. Am I--and this is very likely--missing where this comes up? I seem to remember Attolia was kind of not addressing the question of marriage/an heir before QoA because she didn't want to risk any possible husband seizing the throne, she flirts with the Mede not terribly seriously, and then the Gen thing just kind of...happened. In fact, in a world without Gen (a sad thought indeed), I could even see Attolia pulling an Elizabeth I, never marrying, and adopting an heir when necessary...but then again, in said world, the Medes would probably have conquered everything so it would probably be a moot point.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Welcome! #3. I get the impression it was her temper that made her lash out unexpectedly, along with the very public beheadings/hanging from the castle walls that made people very skittish around her, and gave her the reputation of a cruel queen.

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

Thank you! (and that is a gorgeous icon--is that one of the book covers from other countries?)
I could very well be making this up, but isn't there a scene from the perspective of one of Attolia's attendants--Phresine, I think? It would make sense for it to be Phresine--where she reflects that Attolia's never lost her temper with any of the attendants (possibly any member of the court...? Maybe? I'm sorry, I don't have my books handy to look this up.) and is in fact rather polite and vaguely kind? I think that's why her getting mad at Gen and later snapping at them when they're doing her hair is such a shock. But, uh, yeah, public beheadings/hangings are not going to help one's approval rating much, I'd wager.

[bookishbabe.livejournal.com]

Welcome to the kingdom where wit rules supreme...you'll fit right in here.

Ahhh, the subtext. That's what's forced us to form this little corner of the web so we can have hash these things out.

1) The setup: after it's agreed that Gen and Attolia will marry, Attolia goes back to her palace while Eddis and company take a slower route. Attolia's attendants find her waspish and rally closer around her. She storms off after having her hair tugged too much and slams the door like she had when she was a "minor princess of the king's second wife". She had older brothers ahead of her in succession who died suspiciously. Papa 's been poisoned. Subtext screams, " family that's being killed off!"

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

Welcome to the kingdom where wit rules supreme...you'll fit right in here.

Thank you! And those are quite high standards, but I shall try my best

Belatedly I remember that scene, and that's right, her family does drop like flies. Little wonder she's so paranoid through most of her reign, then! (Though it must be said she does a bit of poisoning herself, let's not forget....) And this, I think, is why I love these books: the fact that there's so much subtext to pick apart and discuss and realize, ages after first reading it, what it's actually implying...

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Irene seems to be remembered only as the beautiful-but-cruel stereotype

Well, Gen's the first one to point it out, right? "You are more beautiful, but she is more kind." And she did poison her husband at their wedding feast and have the captain of her guard shoot the man who proposed to marry her immediately after. And then, in Eddis's words, she became increasingly desperate to hold onto her country. She hung bodies from the palace walls to make a statement. She cut off Gen's hand to make a statement.

Also, I dislike flipping genders in general, especially since one of my favorite parts of the series is that a woman is allowed to wield power and earn respect. Yes, she does it in ways that are pretty horrific, but a) she's trying to hold her country together, b) this isn't set in the 21st century and there don't seem to be any courts of law, and c) per the series' mythology, nothing she did offended the gods. I'm not saying this to excuse her, I'm saying that I love finding this sort of moral complexity in a female character in a nontraditional setting.

Edit: also, welcome!

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

Gen is indeed the first one to point out the beautiful-and-cruel, and certainly Irene does dreadful things. I don't mean to imply that she's only sweet and innocent and misunderstood (if anything, hearing that about Irene would likely annoy me more!).

I suppose most of my frustration is from discussing the books with other people who ignore all that fascinating moral complexity you mention. And honestly, Gen is as ruthless as Irene is (which only makes them all the more suited to each other)--I'd argue one of the themes of the series is that being a good and effective ruler is unfortunately not the same thing as being a nice or kind person.

I agree that female characters as well-written as Irene are few and far between--I'm so glad MWT created her! :)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Like others have said, I was pretty horrified with the Gen/Attolia relationship just as it is, no gender-swap necessary. It took me a LONG time to accept the storyline of QoA. My falling in love with it was a combined result of many things: realizing it was a tale of mercy when Gen finally held the reins of power OVER Attolia and chose love over revenge, MWT talking about it being a kind of beauty & the beast story, me realizing that just because THIS relationship can work doesn't mean it isn't a very rare thing and probably shouldn't be encouraged in most situations. Does that make sense?

And just as a random point of note, I was thinking how unconsciously we tend to accept the idea of a woman taking on her husband's identity in a marriage, but when Gen loses his to Attolia (at least in appearance) we see it as this huge sacrifice that never should've been asked of him. Personally I don't feel like it is a crime for two people to forge a joint-identity/one find some sense of their identity in being the other's helper, but it is interesting how we will see it as a positive/negative thing depending on the person's gender.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

me realizing that just because THIS relationship can work doesn't mean it isn't a very rare thing and probably shouldn't be encouraged in most situations

What's most interesting to me is that I think this train of thought is a product of most other novels' idealized romances. We're never meant, I don't think, to insert ourselves into this story. And I love that it's not presented as any sort of ideal romance. It's just them, and their dysfunctional relationship, and their working through individual complexities and difficult backgrounds.

we see it as this huge sacrifice that never should've been asked of him This might be a product of the fact that he's pretty vocal about the fact that he doesn't want to be king? Most people would be thrilled to marry Attolia and leave behind their former status in order to rule. But his previous position is kind of built up a lot - "there is only ever one Thief" - and there's only one person with his skill set - and we don't want to see him leave that behind. At least I didn't! Which is part of what makes KoA so satisfying for me, that he can still make use of his particular skills in his new position.

Also, there's maybe what the guards point out in KoA involved, too - the one who says (is it Aris?) that he will serve her forever but he would never want to marry her. There's a lot of outer appearances that people focus on because of her image - which she was forced to create, I think, because she's a woman.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear! I don't see it as Gen really losing his identity, though. If anything, since she wants him to rule, it's more Attolia losing hers. (Which was by her choice! Because when he's being recalcitrant and refusing to rule, she demonstrates that she can hold the country together. She either doesn't want to anymore, or she recognizes that her country would be more stable with its queen married - unfair as that may be to her - or both.)

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

Hey betonyb!!! Welcome to Sounis! I have a feeling you'd fit right in. ^__^ I hope you'd have as much fun as we do here. =D I don't have more to add to all the lovely responses, but these are excellent questions!

[betonyb.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you! I've had so much fun with the fascinating discussions that came up just from my rambly questions-- I think this is a truly awesome community, and I think I'm really going to like hanging around here!

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

You guys are amazing, loving this discussion. Plenty for me to go back and read!

[madclairvoyant.livejournal.com]

Sorry for this not on topic post, but can anyone tell me how to post a public post? After I have posted out the, well, post, and logged out of the account, I cannot see it. Can anyone help me? Thank you.

[filkferengi]

Did LJ ask you for a password? I tried to post from the "post an entry" page & change the destination to Sounis, & it wanted a password. I wound up going in via "communities watched" on my profile page, under "posting access" & was able to post the link to the logical socks.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I go out of town, and then sounis decides to have a big awesome deep discussion party without me. Typical.

Not that I would have had time to participate had I stayed home... and actually I just spent an hour reading this when I really really really REALLY should have been doing homework (going out of town made me miss more than Sounis, unfortunately...)

Anyway. You guys are all completely awesome and amazing, you know that right? And when my schedule clears up I shall make you all some fanarts. :D

[filkferengi]

Woot! [engages anticipation hyperdrive]