Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

Which one? The Vor Game or Mirror Dance? I actually started at Mirror Dance, which I can see being one of the worst possible starting points for most people but ended up being the perfect starting point for me. (Let's just say I have some major second-sibling issues. I love Mark.)

From:

beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Mirror Dance sounds more familiar. I actually can't believe I finished it, and my impressions of Miles from it were - Not Very Good, to say the least.

From:

Yeah, Miles isn't exactly at his best there. *ahem* :p I really latched onto Mark though. Which may say some disturbing things about me . . . (well, mostly it probably says more about BigSis, the center of attention, and long shadows -- and me constantly getting identified as "oh, you're ___'s sister"). But I really needed a book about somebody finding their own identity apart from an overpoweringly competitive sibling when it came along.

From:

beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Yeah, I hear that! And so it just spoke to you. Whereas I came to the series with a strong dislike of hard sci-fi, so I had a hard time with it initially.

From:

The gnomes are eating my comments! I promise I'm not a spammer. :( I'm going to try again with random spaces in the link . . .

I just replied over on the Hate post, but it got marked as spam . . . probably because I included a link to Bujold's essay on Goodreads where she discusses reading order. Or, maybe because I had so many titles in italics. I'll try again here.

Considering I started at one of the "worst" possible starting points for the Vorkosigan series and got completely hooked, I'd personally say don't worry too much about it. (That said, I grew up reading from the library, which meant reading everything out of order depending on what was in, so I was really used to picking up a book and starting in medias res and picking up on clues about what had happened already. Yeah, I'm not one to freak out overmuch about spoilers.) One way to find decent starting points is to pick up the omnibus editions. Cordelia's Honor has the first two chronologically (Shards of Honor and Barrayar), and because they're written several years apart you can see the development in her style as well. Young Miles is also a good starting point omnibus (starting with The Warrior's Apprentice). Bujold intentionally wrote complete novels, so if you pick up the earlier ones more or less at random you should still get complete enough stories. From Mirror Dance on, though, the build up of what's happened before becomes a lot more important. (You probably should read Brothers in Arms before you read Mirror Dance.)

For the Chalion series, it's The Curse of Chalion, Paladin of Souls, then The Hallowed Hunt. And I just have a sneaky suspicion that anybody who loves MWT's gods will also love LMB's use of gods.

LMB's own take on reading order and where to start is here: http:// www. goodreads.com /story /show /293438-the-vorkosigan-saga-reading-order-debate-the-chef-recommends

Edited Date: 5/5/13 07:28 pm (UTC)

From:

freenarnian.livejournal.com

From red 'Hater' badge to 'Yay!' bunny in two heartbeats! Gah, I love this community. I hope MWT is proud. 0:)

From:

checkers65477.livejournal.com

Well, I tried to find the icon that was closest to polar opposite of hater. Not only is it an adorable bunny, it's an adorable BABY bunny. Also, Megan likes my yay bunny icon.

When I say she likes it, I mean she likes to mock it. :)

From:

ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com

Megan mocks baby bunnies? Le gasp! XD

From:

freenarnian.livejournal.com

Things I can mock are the things I like best. #blackhearted

From:

My comments with a link to Bujold's essay on reading order on Goodreads are getting eaten as spam, so I'm going to try and copy in a large section of it here:

The Vorkosigan Saga Reading Order Debate: The Chef Recommends by Lois Bujold

Many pixels have been expended debating the ‘best’ order in which to read what have come to be known as the Vorkosigan Books, the Vorkosiverse, the Miles books, and other names, since I neglected to supply the series with a label myself. The debate now wrestles with some fourteen or so volumes and counting, and mainly revolves around publication order versus internal-chronological order. I favor internal chronological, with a few caveats.

I have always resisted numbering my volumes; partly because, in the early days, I thought the books were distinct enough; latterly because if I ever decided to drop in a prequel somewhere (which in fact I did most lately with Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance) it would upwhack the numbering system. Nevertheless, the books and stories do have a chronological order, if not a strict one.

It was always my intention to write each book as a stand-alone so that the reader could theoretically jump in anywhere, yes, with that book that’s in your hand right now, don’t put it back on the shelf! While still somewhat true, as the series developed it acquired a number of sub-arcs, closely related tales that were richer for each other. I will list the sub-arcs, and then the books, and then the caveats.

Shards of Honor and Barrayar. The first two books in the series proper, they detail the adventures of Cordelia Naismith of Beta Colony and Aral Vorkosigan of Barrayar. Shards was my very first novel ever; Barrayar was actually my eighth, but continues the tale the next day after the end of Shards. For readers who want to be sure of beginning at the beginning, or who are very spoiler-sensitive, start with these two.

The Warrior’s Apprentice and The Vor Game (with, perhaps, the novella “The Mountains of Mourning” tucked in between.) The Warrior’s Apprentice introduces the character who became the series’ linchpin, Miles Vorkosigan; the first book tells how he created a space mercenary fleet by accident; the second how he fixed his mistakes from the first round. Space opera and military-esque adventure (and a number of other things one can best discover for oneself), The Warrior’s Apprentice makes another good place to jump into the series for readers who prefer a young male protagonist.

After that: Brothers in Arms should be read before Mirror Dance, and both, ideally, before Memory.

Komarr makes another good alternate entry point for the series, picking up Miles’s second career at its start. It should be read before A Civil Campaign.

Borders of Infinity, a collection of three of the five currently extant novellas, makes a good Miles Vorkosigan early-adventure sampler platter, I always thought, for readers who don’t want to commit themselves to length. (But it may make more sense if read after The Warrior’s Apprentice.) Take care not to confuse the collection-as-a-whole with its title story, “The Borders of Infinity”.

Falling Free takes place 200 years earlier in the timeline and does not share settings or characters with the main body of the series. Most readers recommend picking up this story later. It should likely be read before Diplomatic Immunity, however, which revisits the “quaddies”, a bioengineered race of free fall dwellers, in Miles’s time.

The novels in the internal-chronological list below appear in plain text; the novellas (officially defined as a story between 17,500 words and 40,000 words, though mine usually run 20k - 30k words) in quote marks.

Falling Free
Shards of Honor
Barrayar
The Warrior’s Apprentice
“The Mountains of Mourning”
“Weatherman”
The Vor Game
Cetaganda
Ethan of Athos
Borders of Infinity
“Labyrinth”
“The Borders of Infinity”
Brothers in Arms
Mirror Dance
Memory
Komarr
A Civil Campaign
“Winterfair Gifts”
Diplomatic Immunity
Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance
CryoBurn

From:

Considering I started at one of the "worst" possible starting points for the Vorkosigan series and got completely hooked, I'd personally say don't worry too much about it. (That said, I grew up reading from the library, which meant reading everything out of order depending on what was in, so I was really used to picking up a book and starting in medias res and picking up on clues about what had happened already. Yeah, I'm not one to freak out overmuch about spoilers.) One way to find decent starting points is to pick up the omnibus editions. Cordelia's Honor has the first two chronologically (Shards of Honor and Barrayar), and because they're written several years apart you can see the development in her style as well. Young Miles is also a good starting point omnibus (starting with The Warrior's Apprentice). Bujold intentionally wrote complete novels, so if you pick up the earlier ones more or less at random you should still get complete enough stories. From Mirror Dance on, though, the build up of what's happened before becomes a lot more important. (You probably should read Brothers in Arms before you read Mirror Dance.)

For the Chalion series, it's The Curse of Chalion, Paladin of Souls, then The Hallowed Hunt. And I just have a sneaky suspicion that anybody who loves MWT's gods will also love LMB's use of gods. :)

From:

I do love Chalion so. Maybe even more than the Vorkosiverse. Though it doesn't have enough books set in it. :P

Hmmmm.... I know there's been a MWT/Vorkosigan crossover, and there's been a Vorkosigan/Chalion crossover, but not, as far as I know, a MWT/Chalion one. Damn it, now I want to see Gen and Caz sharing god experiences.

Or better yet, Gen and Ista.

From:

I actually JUST found a link to this post of hers, via a very careful trip into Wikipedia... But thank you for posting it. THIS IS SO VERY HELPFUL.

From her comments above, it sounds like The Warrior's Apprentice and Shards of Honor would be good ones for me to pick up.

The Warrior's Apprentice would probably be the best, if it introduces Miles and starts when he's fairly young. The other book that I picked up randomly (the only Vorkosigan I could find at the library) featured him as a much older man and that was harder to get into... I'm much more likely to identify with younger characters.

I think I'm also somewhat more likely to be immediately hooked by a male character, not because I like them more, but because there's less of a weight of identification. I have to get to know a female protagonist a little better before falling in love with them.

And then once I know what the fuss is all about, I can go and read about Cordelia.

Now my main problem is going to be The Warrior's Apprentice seems to be out of print. Huh...

From:

The Warrior's Apprentice is collected in the Young Miles omnibus volume (along with The Mountains of Mourning and The Vor Game) so you shouldn't have too much trouble finding it.

I personally prefer Shards of Honor to The Warrior's Apprentice, even as a person who tends to be less interested in plots with romantic elements. YMMV of course. But, Cordelia is AWESOME. :D

From:

!!!! Okay, that is incredibly helpful. Chapters has that.

I personally prefer Shards of Honor to The Warrior's Apprentice, even as a person who tends to be less interested in plots with romantic elements. YMMV of course. But, Cordelia is AWESOME. :D

Good to know. I'll get both and see what grabs me.

Yay!

From:

bookaddict88.livejournal.com

Most of the books are available in omnibus form now. Shards of Honor is actually the first part of Cordelia's Honor, so if

hazelwillow found Cordelia's Honor hard to get into, she may prefer to start with Young Miles/The Warrior's Apprentice.

I started with Young Miles, and can definitely recommend it as a starting point. But then, as much as I love all the characters, Miles is my favorite protagonist.

From:

Thanks, it's good to know what is in what omnibus. I think the different titles for the same story was part of what was tripping me up before.

From:

Oh yay! Thanks for posting this on the main page. :D

Now I just have to sit back and let y'all figure it out for me. ;)

From:

checkers65477.livejournal.com

You could also start with Komarr and then A Civil Campaign. They are my favorites (right now, at least. My favorites seem to change.) But I'd recommend starting with Cordelia's Honor, or Warrior's Apprentice, depending on whether you are a have-to-have-all-the-backstory person or prefer to jump right in with the Miles action.

From:

They're my favorites too (Ekaterin!!!!) but I find it hard to imagine starting with them. So much world-building is already in place by then that I think someone starting there would miss a lot. They would pick it up, of course, but a lot of the subtle points would fly by, and those are what we (well, I, anyway) love Bujold for.

Apart from anything else, Aral is such a presence even in those books where he is not onscreen that it's difficult to know how that would read to someone that hasn't "met" him.

From:

rosaleeluann.livejournal.com

You may be right. I'm trying to imagine starting with Komarr... I think alot of the good stuff would have gone over my head.

From:

checkers65477.livejournal.com

If you could get past the what-in-the-heck-is-with-this-setting? (Komarr, with its dome and the vague mentions of the history and the other planets) it might be fun to be thrown into the story with no understanding of Miles and who he is, sort of how Ekaterin is. He would be quite a mystery, wouldn't he? Sort of like Costis' POV in KoA.

OTOH, it's so cool to read Cordelia's Honor first and understand Aral as a flawed man before you see him through Miles' eyes as a legend. You are right about his presence, even when he is not even in the book.

Gosh, I'm wishing for a "a life in ruins with vomiting is still a life in ruins" icon right now.

From:

That's exactly it. I love seeing Miles from the outside, from Ekaterin's perspective, as much as I love seeing Gen from Costis's perspective, but imagine being plonked down into KoA without having read Thief or QoA beforehand.

Actually, that might not be so bad. Going back afterwards, though... eep. Those two books would be forever ruined.

And you're right, Miles's idea of Aral is severely skewed. Though I think in WA, Aral's there enough for a new reader to get a sense of his personality, filtered through Miles's perception, yes, but not his memory. Not that I'd know, because I started with Shards, and I still think that's the best starting point. :P

Then again, I really hate reading books out of order. I always feel like I'm missing the most important connections.

From:

sclerotia.livejournal.com

I actually started with Komarr and it's still one of my favorites. I read all of them from the library in whatever order I could get them, then bought them and read them in order. You do get more from reading them in order, but it is not necessary, and because the novels are character driven the spoiler elements of reading them out of order aren't a killer problem.

From:

rosaleeluann.livejournal.com

I started with Warriors Apprentice and The Vor Game. I can't quite remember where I went after that because it was years ago, but I think I then went back and read Shards/Barrayar. After that, I continued in internal-chronological order until coming to the end of what was then published, then went back to Falling Free.

That worked for me. I definitely think that Warriors Apprentice was the best place for me personally to start the series, because for me its all about Miles--even Shards/Barrayar was about Miles, because its just letting you have the background of why he his who he is.

My favorites of the series are probably Memory character-wise and A Civil Campaign comedy-wise. :-)

From:

Thanks. I'm thinking that sounds right for me, because I like to jump in at the action. And if I like the first few books, I will probably want to go back and get the backstory then.

From:

ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com

I've been meaning to try this series for awhile, but was confused about where to start. Out of the series my library has...

Falling Free
The Warrior’s Apprentice
The Vor Game
Cetaganda
Ethan of Athos
Borders of Infinity
Brothers in Arms
Mirror Dance
Memory
Komarr
A Civil Campaign
Winterfair Gifts
Diplomatic Immunity
Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance
CryoBurn

Out of those options, I'm thinking I should start with The Warrior's Apprentice since Falling Free is a prequel. I can always buy Shards of Honor and Barrayar later (or drop a hint to my librarian...); but if they're stand alone, I'm guessing I can just pick which one sounds the most interesting. :) Thanks for the 411, Sounis!

Edit: Oh, wait... The Warrior's Apprentice is only available as an e-audiobook in a format my computer can't read. ): I guess I'm starting with The Vor Game! :)

Edited Date: 5/6/13 04:45 am (UTC)

From:

I would definitely start with Warrior's Apprentice, out of those. How much they stand on their own is debatable. The plots are independent, but the characterization and the world-building is far more interesting and complex if it all comes in the right order. Shards and Barrayar are more separate, that way, because they do have a different POV character, and take place some years earlier. Falling Free is pretty much completely separate. It's one of those "same world, a couple hundred years earlier" books. Ethan of Athos is also a good stand alone, since only one of its characters even appears in any other book.

It's not that the others don't stand alone, really. It's that they are so much stronger when they aren't.

From:

Look for Young Miles, apparently that has The Warrior's Apprentice in it! At first I was dismayed b/c Warrior's Apprentice seems to be out of print, but no... ah but I see it's not at your library. Mine doesn't have it either.

I did accidentally find it online, too, but I don't wanna do that... luckily i can afford to buy it as it's only $10...

(deleted comment)

From: