Torture

[diadactic.livejournal.com]

One thing I've wondered for a while is: Why does Eugenides order torture? Does Eugenides believe that torture is a good way of forcing information out of people because that is the mindset of the world he's in, or because MWT believes that torture is a worthwhile way of getting information out of people?

Also, torture adds an almost BDSM-like romantic quality to the series... particularly in the romance between Attolia and Attolis. It really makes me wonder about what MWT thinks about torture.

Thoughts?

Comments

[agentmaly.livejournal.com]

Why does Eugenides order torture?

You're going to have to remind me when this happens. He saves Relius from further torture, even though Relius had had Eugenides tortured himself. Of course he was heavily motivated by the fact that losing Teleus and Relius would destroy Irene, but I find that whole sequence to be one of the most touching in KoA (which is chock full of touching things), because as the conversations between Eugenides and Relius develop you can see that Eugenides actually does care for and respect Relius because he is so valued by Irene.

And Sejanus's fate is by no means enviable, but I don't recall that torture was implied to be a part of his imprisonment.

Does this come up in CoK, and I don't remember it? Eugenides knows that torture is not an effective means of obtaining information; he's suffered it himself.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Ok, I wish I were more well-spoken because I just looked at some entries tagged "torture" (and aren't we a bloodthirsty bunch to have such a tag) and so many people expressed it far better than I can. This entry in particular: http://sounis.livejournal.com/397031.html#comments (http://sounis.livejournal.com/397031.html#comments)

Eugenides allows the torture because Irene is queen, and that is clearly how she has had to keep control of her country for all these years. Relius tried to take poison because he knew that, and knew she learned to rule that way because of him. (I also think he tried to take poison because he loved her and wanted to spare her the pain of torturing him, but I digress.) So, Relius had more reason than anyone to understand what would happen to him. He betrayed his country. He committed treason. It was a stupid, inadvertent mistake done to impress a woman, but treason all the same. He caused the death of several people, those spies in other countries. Torture was the ONLY way Irene could know how much damage had been done. And Gen knew he could not alter her orders. He just couldn't. It would have caused more instability/rebellions/losses/havoc in Attolia. Even Telius, who is a friend of Relius, will carry out his queen's or king's orders to maintain security in Attolia. It's what he has sworn to do.

In this fantasy would, in these countries, this is what the rulers did. As you say, it was the mindset of the world they lived in. Eddis was an exception, but even she admitted she would start a war or go to previously unthinkable lows to save her county, if the need were to arise.

What makes it all hopeful, however, is what Gen does later. He goes to Relius. He comforts and pardons him, even though he knows what trouble this will cause with Irene. He knows firsthand what Relius has endured. He knows that Relius came and tortured him after his hand had been cut off, and he had life-threatening infections. But, he knows that saving Relius will save Irene from completely losing her humanity and her heart. His compassion saves them both.

Did you ever see the movie Zero Dark Thirty? There are some awful torture scenes in that, when the Americans have to learn where Bin Laden is, and what terrorist acts are coming. No one enjoyed the torture, I don't think. They hated doing it and hated the people they were becoming because of it (one guy couldn't take it anymore and goes back to the US). But they belonged to a military service that believed that was the only way to ensure peace and avoid further loss of life. So, I don't think anyone involved in Gen's story, or MWT, feel that torture is a good thing or even necessary thing. Gen showed them a more hopeful way where mercy and compassion can play a role, and he gave Irene a way to allow Relius to redeem himself.

I may have some more to say, later, about Gen's torture. But, whew, this has worn me out for now.

[agentmaly.livejournal.com]

I just looked at some entries tagged "torture" (and aren't we a bloodthirsty bunch to have such a tag)

I was doing that, too. And yes.

I concur. I think there's an important distinction between ordering torture, which is what really threw me about the question, and, as you say, allowing it. We have no evidence at all that it was Eugenides's idea to torture Relius, and of course the whole procedure is Attolia's modus operandi. Eugenides has to work carefully to address the situation because he cannot, will not directly countermand Attolia's orders. He knows it's happening, and as you say, he finds a very compassionate way to intervene - compassion that is truly impressive given his history with Relius.

An interesting question is whether there is, conceivably, a situation in which Gen would order torture. I'll have to give it some thought, but my first reaction is that he might, with strong reservations, if once war begins with the Mede, there was a circumstance where it seemed the most expedient solution to a vital security problem. The trouble is that like I said above, he would be very aware that along with moral and emotional concerns, gaining information through torture won't necessarily work.