Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

...you wrote WHAT?

...

*cries*

Just kidding.

No fandom is safe from the yaoi shippers! :-b

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aka slash. =) I'm pretty fond of Magus/Gen myself... (from The Thief era. ;)

Also, if you ever read King? You can *always* imagine Costis and Aris(?)'s conversations together...IN BED with a bottle of wine near at hand. No, really! Try it!

Oh, and Relius... Mhmm, Relius....

;)

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...

...

...

1) ...well, okay, ancient Greece, old men and young boys and all, though I guess that would make Magus/Sophos more likely there...*twitches*

2) ...*huggles Costis protectively, covering his eyes, while he goes "...wait, what was that about me and Aris??? o.O"*

Relius...hm. Maybe.

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Haha, it's a good thing I didn't mention the whole Grecian tragedy-trauma of incest... xD

LoL, I have had way too many classes on sexual quirks in college that align with my own views to post in any G-rated forum.

But have you read any (good) H/C (hurt/comfort) slash stories? The Thief reads exactly like that. (Because it's just not a MWT book without Gen getting massively injured.)

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Hahahaha.

Freud, much?

Hm...I don't think so. I tend to avoid slash fanfic unless I am convinced the characters are actually gay, and so while I slightly despaired at the thought of smexilicious Sirius being gay, I would read well-written R/S (until my OTP of Remus/Tonx came true). Most of the time, though, I just don't think that a gay characterization is IC, and since I mostly prefer IC stuff, I don't read it.

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(ACH, NO FREUD!)

Okay, I'm probably going to kick myself after I've hit the 'send' button for using the words I'm about to use but... :wince:

I tend to avoid slash fanfic unless I am convinced the characters are actually gay....I just don't think that a gay characterization is IC and since I mostly prefer IC stuff, I don't read it.

I've actually stopped thinking whether "gay" is in character or not. Let me explain....

"Gay" is just a cultural adjective that has certain connotations--stereotypes, if you will. So when you think it's "out of character" that Sirius is "gay"--what does that mean, exactly? "Sirius is gay" brings up stereotypes--what you think of when you picture the generic gay man plastered over the canon character. I mean, this happens unconsciously, but "gay" is a political word in this society and culture--there are issues and identities that are automatically erected when one says "I'm gay."

Sexual orientation is never an issue in mainstream culture because heterosexuality is automatically assumed to be the norm--that Sirius is "straight" is never brought up specifically. It's never made a point that Sirius is *straight* the way that a canonically *gay* character's sexual preference is made into his *identity*: "Harry Potter had a lightning bolt on his forehead and a preference for the ladies." This would never happen--but somehow, having a preference for the same gender *would* warrant some sort of explanation within the book. Why can't Sirius *just like Remus*? For no other political reason than that Sirius respects Remus and thinks he's hot? I don't think that would be out of character.

A writer can exploit the assumption of heterosexuality, to use the ambiguity to "fill in the gaps", extending the characterization, to a "what-if." Making Sirius like Remus is no different than having Remus like Tonks--I'm sure I was not the only one to bwuaah? at the latter pairing, but the subtext was there. The only difference was that it was the author's preference we were following.

Slash is just an exploration of character relationships, an extension of all those discussions in English class of what this-and-this passage could have meant or symbolized, it's reading between the lines and interpreting hard data to your own liking, and yet like the best BS, it can backed up with subjective evidence.

And now I'm again going to apologize, because *really*: "assumption of heterosexuality"? "cultural adjective"? =/

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willow-41z.livejournal.com

I think Jade might have been slightly possessive of Sirius, fragilistikal (I don't think I've met you yet. Nice to meet you-- want a zucchini?)

The thing is, the interaction dynamic between Sirius and Remus, to me, was not that of people who were current or former lovers or who were even attracted to each other, it was of friends. That's why I didn't think Sirius/Remus was realistic. Also, from the glimpses of young Sirius which we got, it seemed like he was sort of a ladies' man. Granted, this could have been posturing or denial or pretense or a grand joke or whatever, but taking it at face value it seemed like he was romantically interested in girls, and not in guys.

I have to say I don't remember being surprised at Remus/Tonks. In fact it made me smile, I think. :-)

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...*huggles Costis protectively, covering his eyes, while he goes "...wait, what was that about me and Aris??? o.O"*

*laughs out loud, causing nearby people to stare*

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Oh, boy. We do not want to get into a debate over Sirius/Remus. I don't think it can ever be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

That being said (^_^), there is no evidence of young Sirius being a ladies man. Women may have been attracted to him, but he shows absolutely no reciprocal interest. To me, that's even more evidence for homo!Sirius.

Also, as a response to the thread as a whole: Try rereading the scenes with Nahuseresh and Kamet. If you're thinking about the possibility of a slash relationship (and I always am), it's hard to miss the signs.

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Sorry Jade - had to use the "Hot Manflesh" icon for that post!

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Right, taking it at face value. =)

I'm just using Sirius as an example for what I wanted to convey, though, so that this thread doesn't go completely off-topic. =)

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"Gay" is just a cultural adjective that has certain connotations--stereotypes, if you will. So when you think it's "out of character" that Sirius is "gay"--what does that mean, exactly? "Sirius is gay" brings up stereotypes--what you think of when you picture the generic gay man plastered over the canon character.

I'm trying to think how to descrbie this. One of my reactions is that yes, straight-out stereotypes are bad--but at the same time, there's a reason they exist. This reason is not necessarily a good thing, and the main problem with the stereotype is that people fail to realize that while yes, there are some qualities that can be clues as to someone's orientation it's also very bad to just straight-up say "that's what all gay people look like"--because people are different, and some who seem stereotypically gay aren't, and some who don't are. So it varies from person to person, but--

Aag, that's not the right way to go about this.

It's just that, in general, there are some characters who by their subtle actions or lines can be interpreted to be gay--not because these lines or actions scream "I'M FLAMING" or anything, but just because in the context of situation and character itself. Right now the only one who's coming to mind is Antonio from Twelfth Night, but I know I've read others.

I guess my real problem is when people run around hooking up characters who obviously don't have that sort of preference. It's not with the idea of the character being gay that I'm upset--I mean, if he's gay, then that's just another facet of his identity--but if he's *not* gay, then writing him as such is OOC. Same goes for writing a gay character as straight. That's the point I was trying to make.

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I think if they...*sighs*

I don't think Nahuseresh is sexually attracted to men. In the meantime, I suppose if you read it one way, you could assume that he's simply using Kamet to release his sexual frustration, because Kamet's a slave and can't say anything about it. However, I suspect this would be a very harmful relationship, and not one I want to dwell on. (Heck, it makes I-cut-off-your-hand-and-now-we're-married downright cheerful in comparison. :-b)

From: (Anonymous)

Did he leave your icon on the altar to the God of Thieves?

~Feir Dearig

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The Antonios of Shakespeare are flaming, indeed. (Merchant of Venice, too. Antonio!! Get your man!!!)

And obviously, I didn't write my response well enough because you took all the things I wanted *not* to convey. ^^;

I mean, if he's gay, then that's just another facet of his identity

I shouldn't have written "stereotype" because that's such a loaded word, but it was a fitting one. So, let's try a synonym of "cultural expectation." I was trying to say that in fiction, slash is divorced from reality and its politics, including its loaded words. Gay in this age means Issues--gay marriage, HIV, "coming out of the closet"--there are entire vocabularies devoted to this subset of mainstream culture. I was saying that slash is of a thing apart from reality, and that the loaded word "gay" doesn't apply in its cultural meaning. It might be better to eliminate "gay" and use a less political word like "homosexual relationship" to convey an entirely different sort of animal....

but if he's *not* gay, then writing him as such is OOC. Same goes for writing a gay character as straight.

I actually deleted my portion of my entry that applies to this as I thought my earlier response was enough but. Yes and no. As I said, characters don't come with a stamp on their forhead saying "Straight." If the writer is trying to politicize their writing, they might mention that they're *gay* but they never say that a character is *straight.* It's assumed that *everyone's* straight, even if some never have a romantic interlude with anyone in the story. With this lack of information, why is it OOC to extrapolate they might like someone of the same gender? How would sexual preference deface characterization in any fashion? They will still be the rat-bastards or the great heroes they already are regardless of who they...hmm.

And linking it to what I said above and before in my earlier response, writing gay characters as straight is entirely different. In these books and shows, being gay is an *identity.* It is explicitly stated that they would rather spend the rest of their lives alone than go mate and have kids with a person of the opposite gender. In Nahuseresh's case...well. He's a slinky foreign dude. Who knows what they get up to in their kinky opulent palaces....? Gender and sexuality is really very fluid. So what if Nahuseresh made out with some chicks? He may like boys too. (And again, not going into cultural-infused words like "bisexual.") It is definitely not obvious he has one set preference: It's up in the air, and that's what makes it plausible.

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And yes, there is a scary vibe between the two. (!!!)

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aged-crone.livejournal.com

"Sexual orientation is never an issue in mainstream culture because heterosexuality is automatically assumed to be the norm-"

Probably because it is the norm. Leaving aside any moral issues - and there are plenty - numerically, heterosexuality is the norm.

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That wasn't my point, actually. And let's please leave any morality issues at the door.

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Sure, I basically agree with you. There are more straight people than gay people. I don't think that's the argument though. Heterosexuality is an assumed default state. The problem is that while it's 90% likely that a character is straight, without any indication one way or another there is still the 10% chance that they're gay. So saying that writing a character in a slash relationship is OOC is incorrect.

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Just as a general note of my characterization of Nahuseresh:

In my opinion there is no evidence whatsoever that Nahuseresh has any interest in women. Yes he flirts with Attolia, but I think his interest there lies more in her throne. He appreciates the physical beauty of women perhaps, but shows no signs of loving them. Kamet, on the other hand, he at least treats as an equal, smiles at, calls him by his first name.

And by the way, I think you argue brilliantly. I completely agree with you. Of course, you're preacing to the choir here. :)

From: (Anonymous)

This may an opportune moment to point out that I have taken Bujold for a role model and I do not ever read fanfiction. As much as I enjoyed hearing about the various subplots that were going into the crackfic, I've avoided it, too. I have nothing against fanfiction, of course. I just can't read it. That said, the question of canon versus non-canon, is very interesting. Who is the final arbiter of canon? Am I? Or is the reader? If a specific question cannot be answered with evidence from within the text, is it up to the readers to interpret it as they choose, or should they interpret it as they feel the author intended? And how would they know?

megan

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I think that's reasonable. I don't know if it was on this forum that we talked about lawyers advising their clients not to read fanfiction based on their own work. I can imagine that the temptation would be great though. I know I'd want to.

I'm honestly a bit relieved that you aren't reading it! I'm sure I would have been embarrassed it you had. (Although I am curious to know how you feel about the relationship between Nahuseresh and Kamet. ) :)

As far as canon, I only know what I've experienced in the Harry Potter fandom so far. I don't know if you know, but it gets a bit crazy, what with the way that JKR is always negating theories and giving hints. (Who can blame the woman though, with people pestering her 24/7?) Anyway, in Harry Potter (while the fandom is so huge that it's impossible to make a blanket statement) canon consists of anything that is in the 6 books published so far, the 2 textbooks published, stuff from her website, and anything that has been said by her in interviews. Most people, I think, would argue that the author does have the final say.

That actually reminds me of an argument I got into after the fifth HP book was published, over whether or not an author can write his or her own characters OOC. I think that they can. A lot of people disagreed with me though.

I think that as far as the realm of fanfiction goes, the reader will interpret unanswered questions as they choose. Actually, that's really what fanfiction is, isn't it. When you're talking about analysis, like what goes on in this community most of the time, I would say that it's important to keep the authors intentions in mind.

How does a reader know an author's intentions? Extrapolation, I think. We have to look at what has already been given to us and make an educated guess about what may fill in the blanks. Which is a lot like what

aged_crone did just a post before this one.

Wow, this got a bit long. So many good questions! I couldn't stop writing.

From:

willow-41z.livejournal.com

I would say that you are the final arbiter of canon, because you are the one writing the story. Almost every author has things in their head that the readers don't know about.

If a specific question cannot be answered with evidence within the text, then the readers should interpret it as they feel the author intended, BUT, if there's no evidence at all, then it's simply not canon and they can speculate about it as they please and not have it be AU (alternate universe).

I'm glad to hear you're not upset about the crackfic; it would have been a wrench to have discontinued it.

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jyms.livejournal.com

that's cool, i stay away from fanfiction too. the only fanfic i ever read was the crackfic. *grins* i do have something against fanfiction, in that a lot of it is lousy. granted, there are some really brillant fanfics, but it spoils the story for me. and it kind of hurts to think that the author didn't finish the story properly, such that other people will want to add on to it. that was a fallacy, since i think most people write fanfics because they liked the characters or something, but still...i'll much rather just read the book.

*goes to google Bujold*

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jyms.livejournal.com

oh wait, now i remember...

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If a specific question cannot be answered with evidence from within the text, is it up to the readers to interpret it as they choose, or should they interpret it as they feel the author intended? And how would they know?

They hope she writes more, and clarifies ...?

*cough*wedding night*cough*
*cough*unnamed goddesses*cough*

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What is "OOC"?

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Sorry. OOC = Out of Character

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ceecee44.livejournal.com

Those are good fanfic topics.

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I was thinking more along the lines of Director's Cuts.

I know Megan, "Eat your vegetables ..."

:)

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rowana.livejournal.com

It was worth a try Peggy. :)

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emerald-happy.livejournal.com

I read some fanfiction but I don't go looking for "serious" mwt fanfiction because the books have changed my life so much that I feel I can't. Kinda like what you said, Jyms! I'd rather read the books and keep possible plot lines in my head. *sheepish* OK, now that sounds hypocritical, but I feel the crackfic isn't that serious. The implication that Sophos has been kissing bears - like that's going to happen in a real book!

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rowana.livejournal.com

I feel more or less the same Emerald. Then again, I adored Harry Potter and serious fanfiction (when it could be found) seemed to add another dimension to the canon, rather than diminishing it in any way.

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rowana.livejournal.com

I think I'd agree with Willow - in the end, you're the final arbiter of canon. On how something should read - I guess that's up to the individual. It's certainly interesting, and if something is well written I think it should give a reader a greater sense of the book if they interpret ambiguities as they feel the author intended. But you couldn't really say that it's wrong to interpret something as you chose.

I agree with dannybailey in a way. Though I've always seen fanfiction as being primarily a way of exploring the author's possible intentions on certain ambiguities, it's definitely used just as much to interpret the text according to the reader's wishes. So, although the piece Dannybailey wrote here was definitely her own interpretation as she chose, I guess some of the people who say they feel uncomfortable with fanfiction about their favourite books really only feel uncomfortable with fanfiction which deviates clearly from the author's probable intentions.

Did that make sense? I'm not feeling very eloquent today. :)

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Hence why it took me five YEARS after reading QoA to finally produce even the tiniest hint of real fanfic about it. I don't think I could ever write anything else within the actual timeline--the books are complete, and perfect within themselves.

So I guess I'm going along the lines of the "filling in the gaps" or (in the case of something like Zutara) "future speculation about the possibilities of bringing characters together--i.e. you do your absolute best to stay within the canon definitions of the characters, and then put them in a situation, and write what you think would happen."

With the MWT books, they're complete in and of themselves. There's no real speculation, aside from those missing scenes, and even if there was, my paltry writing skills are no match for her brilliance, and I hate the thought of defiling the books, which is pretty much anything I come up with.

With Harry Potter, on the other hand, there was SO MUCH EXTRA TIME when say only the fourth book was out, and there was THREE YEARS waiting for the next one, and tons and tons of unfullfilled threads, so reading/writing fanfiction for it then was easier. Nowadays, though, there's not as much mystery left, and so I tend not to read it anymore, unless I feel like indulging myself in guilty pleasures and reading some fluffy romantic stuff.

So, in conclusion I guess, when I read fanfiction I'm either looking for really IC, long epics to satiate my desire to read more on a subject, because I just can't get enough of it; or I'm looking for angsty romance. (A great deal of romantic fanfiction is better written than any romance novel, actually has a real plot, and is waaaaaaaaay cheaper than spending my money on cheap paperback novels. :-b) When I write fanfiction, I'm experimenting with styles, exploring something that I think needs exploring, and practicing characterization. Sometimes you just want to tell a story because you're attached to characters, and so you do. Having been there, done that, I firmly support the existance of fanfiction (though not those idiots who rewrite things with themselves in it, or anything really Mary Sue ish, because that's not what fanfiction is about), though I don't write it NEARLY as much as I used to.

:-)

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willow-41z.livejournal.com

Nor will it happen in our crackfic. O_O

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