Deep Thoughts

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about tragedies and happy endings as it relates to main characters. I like happy endings, but I'm willing to go through the tragedy in the middle of a story with a character.

There was a discussion here about the difference between middle grade and YA, about how a middle grade character watches a friend go through the dark night of the soul, while in YA it's the main character going through this. But something that has bothered me about a lot of modern stories is the high body count of side characters for shock value, where the really, really awful stuff happens to other people, and our characters are the slightly luckier ones.

But isn't it more difficult, and yet redemptive, to follow the story of that one who is most tormented? Our dear Gen certainly had his share. And if you've read Elizabeth Wein's "The Winter Prince" or the sequels, the same is true where readers go through the suffering of the characters with them. (Wein's book "Code Name Verity", about a captured and tortured WWII girl pilot, is an extreme example of this.)

What I'm getting at is that writing the point of view of the people most suffering is also a way of honoring them (and honoring people in the real world). They are not a tragic footnote, but their lives--or deaths--are a story all their own.

MWT handles this subject quite delicately in her books , especially as we keep getting more points of view from characters. Thoughts?

When is the tragedy/violence in a story justified? When is it too extreme? Any recommendations of redemptive endings? I like "Wuthering Heights" but it's re-readable to me only because of the happy ending for some characters.

Comments

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I've been pondering this since you posted it. When you mentioned the difference between books where bad things happen to main characters, vs side characters, the first books I thought of were the Hinger Games books. There are so many side characters who die in horrible, senseless ways while Katniss goes on but is always pretty indestructible. And at the end of the series SO MANY dead children, yet it was a YA book and a PG-13 movie. And I think part of that is for the reasons you mention--it somehow dilutes the suffering. And maybe, as you say, that's why Megan's books and Leigh Bardugo's Six of Crows duology have a depth to them that other middle grade/YA books don't.

It's especially compelling to me to see which characters are able to keep their "goodness" (Inej in SoC), others don't (Kaz, though he's not completely irredeemable) and others, like Gen, are really torn. Gen certainly has the potential to blow one day and order a bunch of people killed, or kill them himself (I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT). But he tries so hard to do the right thing. He puts it down to stubbornness sometimes but others are beginning to see it as a core set of values he sticks to. Edited to add: Miles in the Vorkosigian books is a lovely example of a character who has suffered terribly but struggles to do the right thing. I love the parts where he actually carries on a conversation with himself about it.

I was booktalking a couple of weeks ago to an 8th grade class and told them I love books where the author tortures the main character and does all kinds of awful things to them. That got a laugh, as I'd intended, but they really did rush to check out some of the books I recommended.

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

I agree that how the main character reacts really sets the tone for the book. A story can have a lot of sad things happen, but if the protagonist maintains compassion for others, I'm more willing to continue down that path with them.

Or sometimes the characters are so scarred that readers worry they will cross the line (like Gen lashing out if pushed too hard), but if we've seen how they came to that place, we still feel sympathy for them.

Also, you made me think of this

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Or sometimes the characters are so scarred that readers worry they will cross the line

Exactly! That makes the story even more compelling. That battle within themselves. Really, all of us face those battles in smaller ways all the time. It's easy to do the right thing when your life is going well and you're getting your way. Not so easy when you're down or have been hurt. And don't you love it when the character's decision, even though it's the right thing to do, is going to make their life even more miserable?? Poor Gen.

[(Anonymous)]

Hm, I think it's hard for me to think of violence as *the thing* that distinguishes MG from YA mostly because I don't think the presence of torture/suffering/death necessarily makes a story more mature. This goes for stuff like swearing and other kinds of adult content. I've definitely read books that had all those stuff in them but still failed to tell a good story.

And I totally agree with you that a lot of books these days rely on high body counts just for the sake of being labelled as "gritty" or "dark", and to be honest, sometimes I don't find any merit in that approach.

Here's a great example of a YA story that doesn't rely on too much violence, but still came across to me as quite profound: Fullmetal Alchemist. There was only one good guy who died on screen. And yes, I suppose that Edward Elric suffered a lot of pain when he lost his arm and leg (off-screen), but the real story wasn't about his physical suffering; it was more about correcting his past mistakes.

There are also other kinds of suffering that may not directly involve death. For example, I just read The Lost Conspiracy this summer by Frances Hardinge. Hathin, the main character, was suffering long before her entire village was destroyed, and she continued to suffer in ways that were not solely the result of her family's death. And still her suffering is not any cheaper for it, and her story is still so poignant.

Your questions are really hard to answer, hehe. I think there are some people out there who enjoy reading a lot of gore in the same way some people might enjoy watching explicit horror films. In that perspective, I don't know if there will be such a thing as "too extreme" if they serve entertainment purpose for some people. For me, I'm not too fond of it myself, so the lesser the better. I'm usually okay with reading about violence if it serves a purpose; for example, if it directly impacts the main character's experience or point of view, if it makes her or him (or the reader) question ideas about life, etc. If people are dying left and right and the main character doesn't even blink or the reader isn't prompted to think more about what this means, then usually that just annoys me.

Thanks for the thoughtful questions!

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that was me, I forgot I wasn't signed in.

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

Another Fullmetal Alchemist fan! I watched that as my first anime. I found the story very entertaining and thought-provoking at the same time, and definitely covered everything from grief and revenge to forgiveness and loyalty!

[rutabagels.livejournal.com]

One thing I really love about the Queen's Thief series is that every book ends on a high emotional note.

The Thief: Gen's mission ended successfully, he's home with his friends and family, and he and Eddis discuss the future companionably.

QoA: The book literally ends with two characters telling each other "I love you." I cannot think of a single other author who could pull that off without it falling flat and coming off cheesy (good attributes for omelettes, but not book endings); in QoA, it's lovely.

KoA: Gen is established as King; Costis is restored to his rightful place in the world and is set to be Gen and Irene's most loyal, put-upon subject for the rest of his life or theirs, whichever ends first; and the last line strikes a note of awe with the prediction that Gen will be an Annux, "a king of kings." HAPPY SHIVERS.

ACoK: The battle is won; good relations are renewed among the rulers of Eddis, Sounis, and Attolia; Sophos nonpluses Gen the Un-Nonplusable with a statement of simple faith; they end the book with a laugh.

These books contain death, mutilation, torture, treachery, and war, but those things are neither treated lightly, nor dwelled on in a sensationalistic fashion. They're presented plainly, and then the good, uplifting elements are presented just as plainly, and in the end the uplifting elements win out. I love that about this series. As good an author as MWT is, I don't think I could handle her books if she used her powers to drag readers into depression and leave them there.

In general, I do like authors who mostly glean conflict and unhappiness from things besides character death. There was a post going around Tumblr a while back that listed things characters could grapple with that can be just as poignant and interesting as character death, and I wish I could find it now--I think it listed things like "loss of memory," "physical disability," "physical separation from loved ones," "loss of humanity," "disillusionment with power structures/authority figures," "being shunned by community," etc. It was a great post.

It really comes down to an individual author's point of view, though. I've read books that end right before the main character is about to die, or right after they've done so, and felt uplifted and (bittersweetly) happy. I've read ones that end with the main character safe at home, surrounded by family, with no death or despair to be found, and felt depressed and let down. If an author's/character's worldview and values are totally alien to my own, then the book will seem bleak to me no matter what--but if theirs and mine line up (more or less), then even death and torture can have elements of redemption for me to cling to.

So I guess, for me, it's not tragedy vs. happiness: it's bleakness vs. hope. I hate bleakness in a book. I love hope. The Queen's Thief series--to pick, oh, a random example--feels very hopeful to me. Another comment mentioned The Hunger Games; I don't think I could ever read those books, because what I've seen of it is just too bleak. Both series seem to have comparable levels of violence/tragedy, unless I'm mistaken, but the execution is totally different.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Some pretty awful things happen to Katniss too. Losing her sister and her entire town. The skin grafts and ruined mental health. Shot, burned, starved, hunted. Beyond dying, there was wasn't much that didn't happen to her.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

You should try the Hunger Games. They are violent, but not as bad as everyone says and the movies are even less violent. Also, they aren't violent just for shock value, they are a critic on violence and using violence for entertainment.

Plus, like QT they are actually very funny, and are full of great quotable moments. See icon. :)

I never found them hopeless, as they have pretty strong themes of having hope even in bleak situations. Though, the ending does make you want to throw the book out the window, but not in a bad way, if that makes sense? It's a very bold way to end a series.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I respect the heck out of authors who have the skill to write a story about a terrible struggle as a human being without it just being a lot of shock value violence and torture porn. I'm looking at you Saw franchise.

However, I think it's difficult not making your book depressing, when horrible things are happening to your character instead of them just observing. A reason a lot of authors don't do this, I think.

Another tricky part is leaving adequate reaction time. The Poison Study series for example needed a lot of toning down in the suffering department anyways, but my main objection was that no matter what happened to her, the heroine just kinda shrugs and goes on with her day.

QT really is a great example of balance in humor, suffering, hope, and turmoil plus adequate reaction times. There's torture, murder, lose, and suffering but I really don't even think of these books as terribly violent. That's skill, folks.

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

Indeed! QT has a lot of memorable scenes that are of characters processing what happened. So much like real life.