The Queen's Attolian?
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queensthiefI hope the re-read is going well for everyone! We'll be continuing our group read of Thick as Thieves with section two (Chapters 4-6) on Sunday. The re-read schedule is HERE.
Now, on to the real mystery...
What language are these people speaking? Before you tell me well… English, of course! XD Kamet says the language they speak on the Little Peninsula is Attolian. Now, Kamet could just be calling it Attolian like someone might say we speak American in America instead of English or American English. However, Kamet is a skilled linguist and translator, so wouldn’t he refer to the language by its proper name? I don’t think his academic ego would allow a slip like that.
Am I wrong in thinking that the people of Eddis and Sounis speak the same language as the Attolians?
Presumably, the language spoken in the Little Peninsula was influenced by the language spoken by the old invaders—the people the Magus is writing about in QoA. For example, in the RL case of the Norman French invading and conquering England, Old English was influenced by Norman French as it become Middle English.
I’ve always assumed that archaic was the original language spoken in the Little Peninsula. A language that appears to be based on Ancient Greek. I’m certain that archaic isn’t the actual name of the language, since it’s just another way of saying old. For clarity, I’ll just refer to it as archaic.
Now, assuming the invaders spoke a different language then the ancient people of the Little Peninsula, the two languages probably merged and evolved into what they’re speaking now—a demotic version of the archaic. Eddisians, Sounisians, and Attolians all have confirmed regional accents. So, is the language they’re speaking actually called Attolian? Kamet specifically says he speaks Attolian not Sounisian or Eddisian.
Before TaT, the language had never been referred to by anything in particular. We knew that the Mede spoke a different language, but we had no name for the language spoken in the Little Peninsula.
Are they still speaking archaic in Eddis? Are all Eddisians bi-lingual then? Who decided the language should be called Attolian? Did the invaders refer to the conquered Attolia and Sounis as just Attolia, since it is the larger country? Thus, the language simply became Attolian?
Why does Druic say so, so and not so, so, so in Knife Dance!
I have so many questions! Thoughts?
Now, on to the real mystery...
What language are these people speaking? Before you tell me well… English, of course! XD Kamet says the language they speak on the Little Peninsula is Attolian. Now, Kamet could just be calling it Attolian like someone might say we speak American in America instead of English or American English. However, Kamet is a skilled linguist and translator, so wouldn’t he refer to the language by its proper name? I don’t think his academic ego would allow a slip like that.
Am I wrong in thinking that the people of Eddis and Sounis speak the same language as the Attolians?
Presumably, the language spoken in the Little Peninsula was influenced by the language spoken by the old invaders—the people the Magus is writing about in QoA. For example, in the RL case of the Norman French invading and conquering England, Old English was influenced by Norman French as it become Middle English.
I’ve always assumed that archaic was the original language spoken in the Little Peninsula. A language that appears to be based on Ancient Greek. I’m certain that archaic isn’t the actual name of the language, since it’s just another way of saying old. For clarity, I’ll just refer to it as archaic.
Now, assuming the invaders spoke a different language then the ancient people of the Little Peninsula, the two languages probably merged and evolved into what they’re speaking now—a demotic version of the archaic. Eddisians, Sounisians, and Attolians all have confirmed regional accents. So, is the language they’re speaking actually called Attolian? Kamet specifically says he speaks Attolian not Sounisian or Eddisian.
Before TaT, the language had never been referred to by anything in particular. We knew that the Mede spoke a different language, but we had no name for the language spoken in the Little Peninsula.
Are they still speaking archaic in Eddis? Are all Eddisians bi-lingual then? Who decided the language should be called Attolian? Did the invaders refer to the conquered Attolia and Sounis as just Attolia, since it is the larger country? Thus, the language simply became Attolian?
Why does Druic say so, so and not so, so, so in Knife Dance!
I have so many questions! Thoughts?
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no subject
Date: 5/12/18 05:24 am (UTC)Kamet's academic ego might not allow for using 'Attolian' as one might say Americans speak 'American', but his general attitude toward Attolia as a 'cesspit' might. It could be a dismissive/derogatory or general term for a backward language he's mastered more because 'I am genius' and it's part of his status as a powerful and educated slave.
I haven't really thought about it in depth, but there are a few textual clues that come to mind that lead me to believe the three countries speak a similar language, with perhaps Eddis being a little behind in clinging to their 'archaic'.
For example:
- Costis has an epiphany that Gen speaks 'Attolian' so well that it's only when he's half-asleep that his Eddisian accent shows. Sounds more like an accent difference than that Gen wakes up spouting an entirely different language when he's not wholly conscious.
- In QoA when the Eddisians prepare for the Attolian coup, cousins wander about muttering phrases under their breath, which sounds more like practicing a different way of saying things than learning an entirely new language. Granted, in an area of three countries, it may be more common to be familiar with the other two local languages, but Gen's scholarship is noted as distinctive, as is the general isolation/seclusion of Eddis, so it seems a little less likely that being familiar/comfortable with Attolian would be common if it weren't just a difference of dialects or accents. Interactions between countries and different characters in this book in particular don't have the stilted 'this wasn't in my Attolian/Eddisian dictionary' feel that one might expect if there wasn't a similar or common language, like unto the mingling of Norman French and Old English.
- In QT, Gen just talks about the accent changes necessary (swallowing parts of words, dropping some altogether, etc.) which also sounds like a matter of spying and practice than the scholarship necessary to learn a new language.
- Gen and Costis learning Mede is emphasized in a lot more detail than communication and language barriers between the nations of the Little Peninsula.
- Archaic is referenced many times as the language used for formal worship ceremonies, and known by those interested in study or belief in the old Gods.
- There isn't any mention of translators when Sophos addresses the Attolian court. Not something that would need to be specified for the plot to move along, but something that might come up if the language barriers were a more significant part of the overall story arc like in the case of Costis preparing for TaT.
I could see the coastal and larger Attolia being the first point of contact or all that many countries know of the Little Peninsula, and calling it Attolian being a bit like saying they speak English in the United Kingdom... oh, and also some people speak Irish and Welsh.
I can't find it right now, but I know I read up on the use of 'so, so, so' in Rosemary Sutcliffe's work the last time I was reading the Roman Britain trilogy. My brain just filed the information in a vague 'oh, it has actual historical antecedents' that isn't super helpful here, but if I can find the article I read about it I'll link to it later.
no subject
Date: 5/12/18 06:30 am (UTC)I think the use of archaic in the worship of the old gods is kinda like how the Catholic church uses Latin. Like Latin, I think archaic is a dead language used mostly for ceremonial and academic purposes. It seems to be used more in Eddis, like you said. This make sense as they were never conquered by the old invaders. They may also be using more archaic pronounciations, like Eeddis.
Great point on the United Kingdom! There is also the dialect angle. American English and British English have different pronouciations and terms but are still the same language. Someone might shorten the differation between the dialects to simply American and British. This is technically not incorrect, which may be what Kamet is doing. They're speaking the Attolian dialect of the language, thus Kamet just calles it Attolian?
Oh, was so, so, so used historically? Kamet calling it Attolian slang and the use of two sos not three in Knife Dance, has left me linguistically confused.
Shared language
Date: 5/12/18 05:31 am (UTC)“. . . . I reminded them that we shared one peninsula with Eddis and Attolia, that we shared a language, and that the gods of our fathers were the same.” - page 256. A Conspiracy of Kings paperback.
Re: Shared language
Date: 5/12/18 05:48 am (UTC)It always seemed to me like they would have to, as no one ever seems to have trouble understanding anyone else. Kamet referrring to the language as Attolian threw me through a loop though...
no subject
Date: 5/13/18 02:00 am (UTC)I hadn’t thought about the languages much before! Interesting questions!
no subject
Date: 5/13/18 02:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 5/13/18 09:19 pm (UTC)And doesn't Gen say in QoA, that his cousin had been "practicing his Attolian accent"?
Yes there are a LOT of clues pertaining to the accent switch right before the Eddisian coup.
Date: 6/3/18 08:56 am (UTC)the cousin that had been practicing his Attolian accent, how the lieutenant speaks slowly, and carefully.... at least two others.
It's an interesting thing to think about. "Attolian" might be just the name that Kamet uses and sometimes I tend to think of the Eddisian dialect as sounding like Scotch or Northern Irish, and the Attolian dialect as sounding British and I suppose Sounisian could be like Welsh English.
Interesting to know that the Mede ambassadors are fluent in Attolian, like Kamet is.. Eugenides is fluent in Mede (or at least his accent is perfect in it).... If Irene and Helen all speak Mede.. like .. the ability to speak multiple languages is a requirement of the sovereigns.