Another article in anticipation of RotT...

[readsintrees.livejournal.com]

Do you agree with her requests?

https://www.tor.com/2019/02/07/things-i-want-to-see-in-return-of-the-thief-megan-whalen-turner/

Comments

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

1) More Special Friendship Times
Sure. I assume the relationships between the characters, as usual, will be enormously emotional and plot-driving.
2) No Dei Ex Machina
This one I really disagree with. I really love the way MWT writes the gods and faith.
3) Hit Us with More Visions
I don't quite get how this works with the last one. I feel like the visions are okay as far as they go, but I have no real interest in more. I'm sure I could become interested in more...but what's the point with the final book? Unless it's not really? But I feel like it probably is.
4) Please Don’t Kill My Faves
This one I definitely agree with, but...what will be will be.
5) Fool Me One More Time
I'm less interested in being fooled (I was not fooled at all by Thick as Thieves, except maybe how long until I was certain Costis was Costis) as I am in the characters having to recontextualize their whole story based on a revelation.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

"...the characters having to recontextualize their whole story based on a revelation."

That's... a really good point, and I agree.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I think I've said this before, but I read Queen of Attolia first, and I read it massively spoiled, and it's still my favorite of the books (King is next, and I honestly don't think much of that book is a twist to us, the readers, just to Costis). It's the Till We Have Faces trick - write closely enough to a perspective, and then have the characters go through something, and the audience will be invested enough in it for it to work - over and over again, for I believe rereading is just as valuable as first reading!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Mm, yes. And I still think back to the day someone declared, "No story is worth reading twice." I've come up with ever so many arguments to the contrary since, of course, but was struck completely dumb in the moment.

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

And that's a world schema I simply can't understand. There certainly have been stories that have been enjoyable, well-written, and fun to read, but that I return to the library without regret and feel that life is too short to spend it re-reading books I don't love. That being said, I feel like I own more books than just about anything else in my life, and I think they sit somewhere below family and pets in life priorities for me - like I don't think I would try to save them during a fire, but I would probably regret them more than almost anything else I lost.

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

This read a bit like a 'let's generate some ad revenue from a trending topic' article, so perhaps that biased me, but I didn't love this article. Also, 'puppy-dog' and 'poor, sweet Costis' - what? Poor, maybe, because here's another character whose life takes some drastic turns because the powers that be need him, and sweet, perhaps in his loyalty and friendship, but that's not the one word I'd choose to define him.
And maybe an armored, heavily muscled hunting dog that bites as well as being faultlessly loyal.

OK, so:

1) Friendship times: yes. The interpersonal dynamics of the charaters is one of the huge draws of the series, and I always cherish every time we get those moments.

2) Nix the Dei Ex Machina: this doesn't really make sense to me at all. It's important to the characters in the books and is an important undercurrent in explaining characters' world schema and their development, growth, and choices. These are not religious books, and it's never been heavy-handed, but it would be a drastically different series without the gods, so I disagree. They've shown up at crucial times to give needed instruction and meddled to give people the pushes needed to accomplish long-term ends, but they've never just been 'lowered onto the stage' and made everything all better, so I don't see that happening quite that way in the final book. Granted, Hephestia was kind-of standing there waiting to hand the stone to Gen, but he had to get there first, she didn't just show up in the throne room or his bedroom.

3) Visions: I don't get this one either. There's a certain irony to me of wanting less gods but more visions. I don't see where another vision would really be needed, as it's there as a moving force for later action and not just 'that was cool, the gods love me and made me powerful with knowledge'. I think the prophecy will just be in line with what we've already seen with brief communications, oracles, etc. and will maybe just be something already in existence but that we didn't know about through the previous POV's.

4) No killing faves: this I can agree with. Bringing up the idea of a Greek tragedy certainly conjures all kinds of images of ways this series could go horribly, horribly wrong, and I could go read Oedipus Rex or Antigone to get my fix if that's what I was wanted. But we already lost Pol and many cousins, and the next book is supposed to be the next great battle so I'm not overly optimistic that there won't be some losses. What I'm actually afraid of, though, is some kind of ending note that these records have been collated by Tykus Namikus for Gitta Kingsdaughter and we'll find out that everyone's long dead anyway. That will be bittersweet.

5) Fool Me Once, Twice, Thrice: subtle, brilliant machinations have been a running motif throughout the book so I'm sure there will be twists and reveals and surprises (Gen lied about nothing being up his sleeve), but I don't think Megan will try to re-create surprises that worked in the past or reuse tropes that sold her first book. It seems like one of her writing techniques is to subvert literary norms like POV, defining a hero, romantic love, misdirection, etc. so I think we will definitely see the pattern of doing the unexpected will continue, but I'm not hoping for a 'it was all a dream' twist or some such. I'm just hoping the surprise won't be that they bow to the inevitable progression of history and the surprise is that they lose, or accept the rule of a greater power (Mede or greater continental powers) for the sake of long-term survival or something. I think that's already been done with Eddis and Sounis uniting under Attolia, so I don't think it will, but I can't shake the nagging thought that it certainly would be a huge 'gotcha'.

Have we actually seen somewhere that confirms Gen's first-person POV again? I thought it was largely just speculation at this point, but I vaguely remember a comment somewher to this effect.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

"What I'm actually afraid of, though, is some kind of ending note that these records have been collated by Tykus Namikus for Gitta Kingsdaughter and we'll find out that everyone's long dead anyway. That will be bittersweet."

That kind of ending does painful things to my heart, too (says girl who used to cry over her history textbooks), and I've had the same fear.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

I think if it were revealed that they lived a long, happy life, with many fat grandchildren, I'd be okay with reading "and they're all dead now." Since all people do die. :)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

LOL.

That would be a nice enough ending (bittersweet, as whataliethatwas said), but it wouldn't stop me grieving, just as I grieve the loss of real friends (even the ones I hope to see again someday).

But, whatever the case, it shalln't be as bad as following 4 generations of the same family and having to learn to love and then say goodbye to each of them in turn, as one does when reading Rosemary Sutcliff. It'll be a while before I revisit that emotional roller-coaster, brilliant as it was!

Suffice to say, I get really invested in fictional characters. It hurts, in a good way. Or, to quote one of the only Doctor Who episodes I care to remember: "Sad is happy for deep people." :p

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

I mean, one of my favorite books is The Silmarillion. Spoilers: It does not end well for almost anyone. :)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Still not as bad as Children of Húrin.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Secret fact about me: I've read the Silmarillion three times. I've only read the chapter about Turin once. It's too hard, even for me.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not a secret anymore. :P

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Saw this today and had to share, it was too funny/relevant. (Also couldn't resist the urge to correct the title.)

(https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/freenarnian/24268716/19447/19447_original.jpg)

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

ahaha. Nice. I always know I've found a kindred spirit if they've read Silmarillion. (Or an Anne of Green Gables book that hasn't been made into a movie in 50 years. :) )

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

(Just seeing this message now, for some reason.)

Ha. I think I know a kindred spirit when they use the term "kindred spirit." :) The Megan Follows films in particular were such a formative part of my young life. I think it's time for me to re-read the books, though. I'm a real proponent for re-reading books at different stages in your life, and it's been too long since I cracked open an LMM book.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Very true. I watched the Follows films on VHS as a kid, though I don't think third or even the second holds up nearly as well as the first. I rewatched the first two years ago, though, and it's still a deeply moving and beautiful experience.

I reread most of the books last year when I took a kid's lit course for fun, and got to write my final paper on Anne of Windy Poplars, my favorite (and apparently no-one else's :) ). I found it just as delightful as ever, as I did most of the books.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Just hearing the music (warbly as it is on our deteriorating VHS) makes me emotional.

Taking a "kid's lit course for fun" sounds like something I'd approve of. :) My sister remembers liking Anne of Windy Poplars, but I'll have to get back to you on that one.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

I have the CD of the second film's soundtrack. I think it's odd that it's the only one I can find for sale, but it's gorgeous. :) (I actually watched the 1970s BBC adaptation of Anne of Avonlea/Anne of the Island, and despite having much less money, and some actors who aren't as good, I liked it because it actually pays attention to the books. I'm curious to know if people don't like it as much because Gilbert is probably the weakest part of the adaptation, but since I'm in the books for Anne, it was okay, even with her clearly English-doing-Canadian accent :) ).

The course was incredibly fun, even getting the flu something fierce halfway through. Windy Poplars (or Windy Willows in some countries) gets flack for being largely an epistolary novel, but I love Anne's writing voice. :)

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

I know part of it is certainly because I'm not feeling ready for the next book to be here just yet and definitely not for it to end, so thinking of it being a double end with that kind of closure is a little too bittersweet right now. I think if the final book was deeply satisfying and there were, as you say, many fat grandchildren (possibly named Gitta), I'd be a lot more okay with it. I also think I trust MWT to make it believable and at least interesting. Like I do really enjoy Harry Potter, and I know the end is supposed to illustrate that war is awful and messy and people you love may die, but personally, it felt a bit too contrived for me. If I'd felt sure it was truly random the way an actual battle would be I might have been more okay with it, but it felt a bit like the author wielded the magic storywand and picked people who had to die for the story to come full circle or that would be mourned by the fans without getting too much public outrage.

And I agree with freenarnian that the Rosemary Sutcliff series (all of them, really) are hard to read in that way. It's fun to recognize references to past characters and books but I do feel sad I'm not reading their story anymore and it is sad to think that in-world they're no more than a memory or a rumor. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a series I have to be in the right frame of mind to read.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Yes, Sutcliff was a master at bittersweet.

I know MWT has voiced her support for happy endings in the past--so I'm holding onto that hope. :)

And, since you mention HP, imagine my dismay when I took one of those "Which Character Are You" quizzes, and got... FRED. x_x (Talk about adding, erm, injury to insult!)

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

Watch out for snakelike men with no noses, I suppose. Or maybe double-check to see if you have a twin to be on the safe side.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Might be karma, getting back at me for insisting that I liked George better.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Totally agree on the gods. The gods either create conflicts are nudge characters in the right direction. They have never magically solved a conflict, so the use of the term Dei Ex Machina makes no sense to me.

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

I also wondered about mentioning that we would get Gen's POV again. It would be SO amazing, and strange, after all this time. I would love it. Also, I'm not planning on it. I do really, really want to get some more Gen time, so any perspective - third person or omniscient, etc - wouldn't matter. I personally love the POVs in QOA and KOA.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

She makes some amusing comments and good observations in this article (my favorite being, "hey, Attolia, Sounis, and Eddis are no slackers in the outmaneuvering category either") but I didn't agree with all of it.

More Special Friendship Times
Well, duh. I'd love to see more conversational pairings--we get hints of discussions between Sophos and Irene in ACoK, and I've always wanted to be tuned into those, for example. But I don't want it to be a book of "extras." I trust MWT to know what belongs in the story and what doesn't.

No Dei Ex Machina
Disagree. MWT's excellent and unique incorporation of the gods is one of the things that makes this series shine for me. And I don't think she's overdone it, either. Gen and all those who've encountered deities in this series are very clearly set apart from the norm, often troubled and/or disquieted by what they've seen and heard, etc. It's given me actual CHILLS while reading. Wonderful.

Hit Us with More Visions
This seems to contradict her previous point. Also, Helen's vision at the end of ACoK had a lot of impact for me. Especially the realization that this is a burden she and Gen have been sharing... and now they're bringing Sophos into the fold too. I want to hug them all.

Please Don’t Kill My Faves
Again, DUH. I recognize that there is a place within stories for meaningful deaths, and I'm...gulp...ready (and again, trusting) for whatever MWT deems necessary. I did just finish a different book, though, in which I could tell from a mile off that one of the main characters was being led to the slaughter, just because it was the last book in a trilogy and SOMEBODY GOTTA DIE. That kind of thing upsets me. I hope we don't have any token deaths in this finale. Whataliethatwas's point about finding out everyone's long dead hit me hard, too. The thought has crossed my mind but I keep pushing it away. (Still not as bad as pointless deaths for cheap dramatic effect, though.)

Fool Me One More Time
This shouldn't be too hard, seeing as I missed even obvious things in TaT. (*facepalm*) I would like to see something wrapped up in such a way that even The Thief takes on some new nuance, but maybe that's too tall an order. I'd be satisfied with a Philonikes cameo, honestly.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Glad that all three of us who responded so far think that the Dei Ex Machina are good, and the More Visions thing is contradictory. :)

I actually feel quite proud of myself for not being surprised in Thick as Thieves, because I'm horrible at solving mysteries. :)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I *suppose* she could be thinking that visions are somehow down to the merit of the characters themselves, and not the result of divine intervention, but... I'm not sure that's even true for this series. I'd have to re-read and ponder that point a little more. (If that's even the distinction she was getting at. I don't know.)

I was just really thrown-off by TaT the first time through. Flinching at shadows. Oblivious to solid forms. In a way, having the opposite experience than you: Usually, my sister tells me "DON'T SAY ANYTHING" when we're watching movies, because I tend to predict what's going to happen, and "ruin" it for her. 0:1

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

I think you COULD argue that the visions are not related to the gods at all...but I feel strongly that you're reading into the text if you really come to that conclusion.

I've gotten better at telling what's going to happen because of narrative patterns, but I'm still rubbish at actually solving mysteries. I only notice patterns in movies and TV and books because I've read thousands of them. :)

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

I can understand wanting the prophecy being a means by which the gods can provide direction without going so far as a 'solve all the things dei ex machina', but it seems a little bit too much of a literary trope, like there being a prophecy of a powerful object through which the Medes can be defeated forever (e.g. link below), or the child of the prophecy being blessed with knowledge of the future suddenly showing up or being revealed and swooping in to save the day. It's just a reverse dei ex machina to me. Not that it couldn't be handled well or at all like this - finding out there was additional information given in the volcanic vision that hasn't been revealed to us because in TT both Gen and Helen saw so it's assumed knowledge, or because it's like unto the 'we need to yield sovereignty to one over-power to resist the Medes to therefore we're going to move out of the country we fought to maintain in QoA; knowledge that wouldn't do for the public to know, especially being instruction from the gods everyone's uncomfortable to acknowledge.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see an author try to write a story without straying near any of these TV tropes. I have a feeling the result would barely resemble what we call a story. Could it not be said that Hamiathes's Gift is the MacGuffin that started this all, in The Thief? I want tropes done well, I suppose.

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

Oh absolutely, tropes become tropes for a reason, and Hamiathes' gift is a MacGuffin of sorts. MWT is not immune to this, I just appreciate that she's aware, that she subverts or inverts some tropes, and uses them well. I just think there's a difference between crafting a narrative that probably veers into trope territory at some point and reaching into a trope grab bag and piecing together a plot around them. Like I enjoy David Eddings, but the Mallorian series is pretty much just an exact copy of the Belgariad with beards drawn on the men to show they're grown up, and while it's a fun story, I feel like he just relied on the 'tropes' that sold so well in the first books that he capitalized on them by doing it again. Or Psych is one of my favorite TV series, but as the series became very popular, things the fans loved became used so frequently that they started to lose some meaning and humor.

Also, reading through past discussions I have been thinking about Philonikes and a cameo would be amazing.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

I think tropes are actually good, as long as you think about them and use the setup and consequences of them. If you avoid all tropes, your story lacks any real emotional connection to human narratives, since I believe tropes are based on things that are true about how we see the world, even if they're common patterns or conveniences. If you rely on tropes, as you describe, the narrative is fun on a surface level, but doesn't sustain enough interest to deeply think about it.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Yes to both of your comments. Also, what Ian said earlier, about how one can't help but notice patterns, when one becomes familiar with SO many stories. There's a lot of praise out there for originality (which is certainly good) but oftentimes it's not the concept or plot itself that is unique, but the author's approach and handling of it.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Hamiathes's Gift is totally a MacGuffin, but it makes sense why everyone wants it and why it's important, so it works. MacGuffins fail when the author doesn't take the time to explain why we should care about the Holy Grail and why anyone would want it other than it's shiny and may give them vague, undefined power.

What's his name's heart in Pirates of the Carribean 2 comes to mind.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Oh, and the "pièce de résistance" is an excellent use of a MacGuffin in the Lego Movie. Of course, the Lego Movie in general is fantastic in its use of tropes. (The second one just came out, so I have to mention it...)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

At least we got the Jar of Dirt song from it. *groan* (I'm such a fan of the first movie.)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

1) More Special Friendship Times
YES! I want just one scene with everyone together in a library eating shawarma. It could be just one page. Please!
2) No Dei Ex Machina
Not trying to sound snotty here, but I genuinely think she is misunderstanding what a a Dei Ex Machina is. The "God in the Machine" trope (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina) is something that comes out of no where and magically solves conflicts. The gods are used sparingly in the narrative and only to nudge the characters in the right direction. They don't solve conflicts for the characters. They are actually more likely to create them. Thus, I'm perfectly fine with how MWT uses them as a device.
3) Hit Us with More Visions
I'm more concerned with LAVA day actually happening than the visions anyone is having of them. So, I honestly can't say I have an opinion on the dreams.
4) Please Don’t Kill My Faves
Totally on board with this one.
5) Fool Me One More Time
I agree with Ibmiller that recontextualisation is more what I'm looking forward to. I have a sneaking suspicion that there are "things" going on behind the scenes with Gen during CoK and TaT that have the power to recontextualise those books a lot. Nevertheless, I'm fine with being tricked again. :)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

"everyone together in a library eating shawarma."

lol!

I can just picture it: Gen chewing with his mouth open just to annoy everyone else, Irene side-eyeing everyone before she takes a cautious bite, Sophos being nervous about spilling food on the books, Helen tucking in with unapologetic gusto, Costis staring into the middle distance like "what just happened..."

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I completely agree about Gen Being Up to Something. That's always a safe bet. :)