![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
philia-fan.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
queensthiefI've read a lot of books lately in which the main character is tortured, is threatened with torture, or undergoes some sort of horrific physical pain. It's made me realize that, handled less than perfectly, this can leave you with a rather unclean feeling after reading a book -- as if you have, in fact, been participating in the torture by reading so breathlessly about the details.
It made me really appreciate the way MWT handles Gen's losing his hand. We feel his pain (largely psychological) without getting drawn into any details that could remotely be considered titillating. It's even suggested in KoA that Gen was tortured after the loss of the hand, and we can feel the horror of that without knowing any details at all. More interestingly, we can feel that Gen himself finds that part of his experience relatively unimportant.
I respect that authorial choice very much.
It made me really appreciate the way MWT handles Gen's losing his hand. We feel his pain (largely psychological) without getting drawn into any details that could remotely be considered titillating. It's even suggested in KoA that Gen was tortured after the loss of the hand, and we can feel the horror of that without knowing any details at all. More interestingly, we can feel that Gen himself finds that part of his experience relatively unimportant.
I respect that authorial choice very much.
Gen's pain
Date: 8/20/07 02:26 pm (UTC)I just finished reading KoA, where more of the post-hand trauma plays out. I also got the sense that Gen was tortured after he lost his hand when Relius came back to the jail to see him.
Finally, I think that we also see the impact when his father attempts to strangle him in QofA rather than see him be tortured again. It was such a heart breaking image - a father strangling his son to prevent him from being hurt anymore - as well as showing the psycholgical impact of what happened to Gen in the jail that he can't handle any more emotional pain like he went through.
no subject
Date: 8/20/07 07:53 pm (UTC)Re: Gen's pain
Date: 8/21/07 01:26 am (UTC)that he can't handle any more emotional pain like he went through
Don't you think it's more likely that it was the fear of more physical pain, rather than emotional, that brought about the decision that Gen would be better off dead?
no subject
Date: 8/21/07 01:39 am (UTC)Because it wasn't really described, I wondered how much pain Gen must have been in the first few days after his hand was cut off. Since we see it through Attolia's character, we don't really get a feel for that. Maybe that's a good thing.
Obviously there is no pleasing me.
no subject
Date: 8/21/07 02:09 am (UTC)And as to whether Gen was tortured after his hand was cut off, I didn't just 'get the sense' that it happened--to me it seemed plain hard fact after reading that scene with Relius in the dungeon. I don't have my book on me, but Gen says something like "So, Relius, are you ready to discuss the resources of your queen?" as if he was tossing back a question that Relius had asked when he was torturing Gen. A bit later he asks Relius, "Did I tell you anything?" to which Relius replies that he pleaded and begged, but did not tell anything. I'm trying to remember more details of that scene... I guess now that I think on it, it does not come straight out and say that the torture happened, but it is implied very, very strongly... at least, that was the impression I got. I need to re-read.
no subject
Date: 8/21/07 06:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/21/07 12:24 pm (UTC)What I think really works about this is that we DO get the pain and the agony, but we don't get anything specific that crosses the line into voyeurism -- no sizzling of flesh from the cauterization, no descriptions of exactly what Relius might have ordered done to Gen, and how exactly that felt to him. Because those details (I'm finding out from recent reading experience), instead of making the pain more real, actually take you out of the scene while you try to visualize them (whether you want to or not) and imagine how horrible and scary it was and hope that nothing like this ever, ever happens to you or someone you love. That's useful if it's a real-life account of war crimes a journalist is trying to bring to light. In fiction, I find it brings the story to a crashing halt, while I try to cope with how upset the descriptions have made me.
It's a very, very tricky area. After all, the desire to torture (though I don't think Attolia ever does it out of pleasure) is a real part of human nature, and as such is fair game in fiction. But if you take pleasure in reading about it, you're sharing that mindset and that's creepy -- and if you hate reading about it, you're likely to toss the book across the room.
I really admire MWT for finding another way to deal with it. In a certain sense, she doesn't flinch from it, but she never mucks around in it enough to bring her readers down to that level.
Gen's pain
Date: 8/21/07 12:32 pm (UTC)"Don't you think it's more likely that it was the fear of more physical pain, rather than emotional, that brought about the decision that Gen would be better off dead?"
Yes - I think you are right. I think he can't cope with the idea of more physical pain as well as the thought that he might be alive for some time, possibly blind and deaf.
"And as to whether Gen was tortured after his hand was cut off, I didn't just 'get the sense' that it happened--to me it seemed plain hard fact after reading that scene with Relius in the dungeon."
I just re-read that. Once again, totally right. I think he was tortured further by Relius before they sent him back to Eddis. It's amazing that he didn't die of infection or shock in the jail or on the way home. Even with his health broken, he must have some constitution!
no subject
Date: 8/21/07 01:52 pm (UTC)He begged, "Please, please," as if his heart were breaking
homg. it probably was!
no subject
Date: 8/21/07 06:59 pm (UTC)Just before Gen begs Attolia not to hurt him anymore there is an early hint at what we don't yet know on first reading - "in Eugenides' eyes there was only fever and pain and an emotion she couldn't put a name to." My question is, when did MWT know that Gen was in love with Attolia?
And the other thing I want to add, Gen neither wants to inflict pain nor does he tolerate well pain inflicted upon him - but he has a huge tolerance for pain, both physical and emotional, if he inflicts it on himself!
no subject
Date: 8/21/07 07:57 pm (UTC)but he has a huge tolerance for pain, both physical and emotional, if he inflicts it on himself!
awww! Yeah, and he doesn't give up says Ornon.
no subject
Date: 8/21/07 08:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/21/07 08:58 pm (UTC)http://community.livejournal.com/sounis/55198.html
http://community.livejournal.com/sounis/61433.html
no subject
Date: 8/22/07 05:34 pm (UTC)He struggled for breath as his thoughts circled like birds that couldn't find a perch, searching for a way to change the truth, to change the queen of Attolia, but her decision was final, the action irrevocable.
Now, I've never experienced this kind of torture, but the way MWT writes it, I understand Gen because I too have "searched for a way to change the truth, to change [someone else's mind or action]". This is the beauty, the craft, the skill, of MWT. I am not psychologically scarred from reading her books. Rather, I have found a kindred spirit; I know this character because I see my own thoughts and emotions mirrored in his.
no subject
Date: 8/22/07 06:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 9/2/07 04:08 pm (UTC)No wonder he felt sick every time the king was civil to him. Waiting for reprisals.