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[avian-xj.livejournal.com]

 Let's talk about Teleus. 

There was some speculation in Chatzy today. What is Teleus' private life like (if he has one)? Also: thoughts about his devotion to Attolia and to the law and order around her? Isn't it adorable how protective he gets? Speculation about Teleus' backstory? Costis is a younger version of Teleus so what does that say for Costis' future/ Teleus' past?

Comments and thoughts would be lovely, but everyone must promise not to give Checkers any reason to use the idiot icon! :P

Comments

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

I HEART TELEUS.

That is all. Well, and that other thing Checkers asked us not to mention. That too.

Also, some favorite passages/lines to think about when discussing him:
1) I mentioned in Chatzy
"We have to get a message to the army at the pass," Teleus said.
"Why?" asked the Mede, raising his eyebrows in surprise. "To start the arrangements for a state funeral?"
"She might not be dead," Teleus snarled.

2) ...um, I'm getting caught up in a QoA reread (oh God I love it so much. Oh Lord. When Gen bleats like a goat? Or when he kisses her in her tent? *FLAILS*), but I'm thinking that somewhere there's a scene where Attolia thinks something about how she switches out her captains before they can betray her. Of course, later one we find out that Teleus is only her second captain, so maybe this is a different kind of thing? Anyway, is his time coming to an end?

3) I ♥ him.

[estarria.livejournal.com]

See, I've wondered about the switching-out-captains thing too, because Attolia doesn't seem so keen on getting rid of Teleus. (especially in KoA, if I'm remembering right, I don't have my copy here right now) And after she told Relius he had been promoted to a new level where he was trusted unconditionally, I'm thinking she might do/have done the same for Teleus. Maybe.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'll go ahead and copy some things from the chat backlog, too, just other things to think about...

Avian: I kinda think his job is his life, but not really cause that would drive anyone insane.
Jade: but he's so amazingly LG. I mean, I'm sure he has offtime, but it seems like his main friend is Relius...just a hazard of working on the job, you know? And they're probably the most fanatically devoted/defensive people of Attolia (aside from Gen) out there, so they have to stick together.

(corollary: I love the scene where Relius and Teleus are kicking back in one or the other's room and discussing Gen.)

Jade: he's like the actual big brother Attolia never had.

Jade: Now we have all this background and understanding of Relius, and I'm wondering if we get a little more to Teleus. Though I doubt that (with the way MWT's mind works, you know how she said that thing about not knowing too much about her character's backgrounds) there's not as much to Teleus. 'cause again, he's like Costis, and Costis wears his heart on his sleeve.

...*more hearts*

[avian-xj.livejournal.com]

would you like me to put those in the post itself so people can find them more easily?

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Of course, she did have a big brother, but he was probably a jerk. So Teleus is like the NICE big brother she never had.

[scottykarrde.livejournal.com]

I MISSED THIS PART!!!
*sobs*
Y'know, you're soooo right, I never thought of Teleus as that old/that stage of life. I do recall being confused about his friendship to Relius - now that makes sense.
Gotta reread gotta gotta.

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

I love Teleus. What more can I say? :P

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Oh, way to be discreet, guys. :P I suppose it should become my default icon.

What I was going to say is that Teleus is a huge failure. It's a wonder Attolia has kept him around, knowing how she usually punishes those who fail her. In Thief, he underestimates Gen and fails to stop him before Gen kills a guard. Then he, or the jailers, allow to Gen to escape when they leave the lock picks with him.

In Queen, Gen twits Teleus repeatedly. Gen has been skulking around the megaron, what, four times? He's been in her bedroom, for heaven's sake. Teleus knows the only reason they finally capture Gen is because the queen *somehow* knew they should hammer boards between the trees. Then, he allows the queen to be kidnapped from under his nose. Nahuseresh sums it up nicely, when he accuses Teleus of being in on the kidnapping attempt (p. 274 of eos edition). " '...if you look to see who that conspirator might be, I think you will find the captain of your guard a likely candidate. Who admitted the Eddisians to the megaron at Ephrata? Who allowed them to leave again? Who sent Eugenides to the dock and who was just a moment too late to reach you there?' he asked the queen."

In King, there is the assassination attempt that Teleus is too late to stop. No wonder Attolia sentences him to death. No wonder Teleus hates Eugenides so much. He does not understand Gen at all and underestimates him at every turn.

[empmai.livejournal.com]

Maybe she's kept him around because there's just nobody else yet that she can put into the postition that would do any better. At least the guard follows his orders.

[avian-xj.livejournal.com]

oh, you're very right! poor Teleus would have had a much easier time if Gen didn't cause him so much trouble. poor guy. but then again, Gen saved him from Attolia's death sentence so that makes up for it a bit :)

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

Ahem. Yes. Teleus. Very hot. Very smexy. Very much the Professional Soldier Completely Dedicated To His Post/Queen. And Jade - YOU CAN'T HAVE ALL THE HOT GUYS! It's simply not fair. Besides, I'm quite certain he is too old for you and your mother would not approve.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

She can accept all of his very human failings (especially because she knows what a demon Gen is) EXCEPT the one where Gen is injured. That's the only truly Unforgivable Offense. (lo, the transforming power of love)

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I agree, Checkers. I have often wondered about the fact that Teleus has failed repeatedly. In KoA, Gen says, "She doesn't have anyone to replace him." The key, I think, is that the Guard is completely loyal to him, and he is completely loyal to the Queen. That leads to things like the fact that, while Teleus doesn't figure out the assassination attempt, Costis is at least able to warn Gen (and may have saved his life). Without Teleus, there is no Costis. He's an interesting character because he DOES fail, and yet his failure is almost always because Gen outwits him. It's not a failure of loyalty or character. I think if Attolia got rid of him, there'd be no one able to outwit Gen AND she'd lose that staunch supporter.

[scottykarrde.livejournal.com]

Ouch.
*aching for Teleus*
But remember, no one can be all powerful. Every country in the world eventually has its 9/11 (and I'm not getting into the politics of that.) Despite his best efforts, things would - did - happen. After all, he was up against GEN.
Then again, in those days, one of those things was enough for chop-chop suey neck kablooey.
On the third hand, he is demonstratively loyal to Attolia, and she knows he whole heartedly is doing his best (as much as any other human.) So why not?

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Jade's initial reaction: OMG HOW DARE--you...oh. Um, you're right. You're really, really right.

And I think Philia's right in why Attolia keeps him anyway--it's like what Estarria said, and what I would've said if they hadn't said it first. Attolia needs him anyway.

But I don't blame him for hating Gen, either.

I wish I was feeling more coherent on this subject, but it would involve a reread of KoA that I don't have time to do right now. :-(

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

Hey, I was good. I didn't say a thing :P

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Oh, and Teleus also didn't know about the snakes and sand. Attolia seemed to blame him for that, too.

[flamesword.livejournal.com]

I always miss chat, because I am sleeping then. :/

[scottykarrde.livejournal.com]

*sympathy*

[alineadrklrdsis.livejournal.com]

I apologize for the very long comment.

It always seemed to me that Teleus saw Attolia's flaws and her strengths and respected her anyway and vice versa. When I first read KoA I thought Teleus had a sort of soldier's respect for the things that Attolia had done but further reading made me think that he sees her more like I think of my younger siblings; I love them very much but would never tell them, and whenever one of us makes an enemy we unite against them. That would be why for most of KoA he just can't process the fact that Attolia loves Gen,I don't think that he "hates" Gen though. With Costis it almost seems like he feels the same way about Gen,as Teleus does about Attolia, with the exception that he is VERY awed by the awesomeness that is Eugenides.
In short I agree with Estarria, Jade, and just 'bout everyone else who has posted here.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

Very good points, Alinea. Well spoken. I don't think hate Gen so much as gets totally frustrated by him (which is a maddening emotion, in and of itself).

[estarria.livejournal.com]

I like the "Teleus is to Attolia as Costis is to Gen" analogy. Hadn't thought of it that way before, but it's true.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Yeah. You said what I was thinking, only much more eloquently. Especially when dealing with the whole sibling-type relationship I think they have. Or at least that Teleus has for her. He maintains his professional distance and all, but he's very, very protective of her (and not just as his job--not just her person, y'know?).

[ladyfox.livejournal.com]

Mmmm, yes, he is almost religiously loyal, and maybe Attolia doesn't have someone to replace him... at the same time though, I think Teleus's "failures" are being overstated here.

1) Everyone of them mentioned (save Gen's attempted assassination) involved Gen. Gen is not just a really good swordsman/sneaky guy/brilliant planner. Gen is a FORCE OF NATURE, whom it takes insider information from the gods themselves to stop. Don't forget he waltzed in on Sounis how many times too? All the rulers on this island do not have guards that incompetent. Gen is just THAT good (and perhaps the gods are partly to blame for his slipperiness just a little given the implications that they have PLANS for him).

2) I can't help but think of a quote from West Wing, where one of the CIA heads, after a messy failure points out "All our failures are public, all our successes in secret. That's how it has to be." Now, not saying that Teleus's successes are secret, but the mere fact alone that Gen is the compass each book is built around (even when someone else is narrating), it's safe to assume we only get to see Teleus's work as relates to Gen.

Keep in mind that Attolia has ruled without the support of her barons for many years now. Erondites and his ilk are not stupid. If Attolia didn't have a very competent guard captain, I think we can safely assume there wouldn't have been an Irene left around for Gen to marry.

3) Every human being fails, but you can learn a lot about a man by what he DOES about his failures. Notice that Teleus never gets flustered, never starts pulling out his hair, he plays the ball from where it lands. His first thought upon discovering Gen's ruse in Queen is to make preparations to rescue her, inspite of obfuscation and harassment from a certain ambassador misinformed about his own importance.

Also, he TAKES RESPONSIBILTY for his failures, and, I would argue, learns from them. Yes he underestimates Gen, but it's not the same kind of underestimating. The first time in Queen (since it's unclear if Thief was Teleus or not, I am not going to reference that one), he underestimated Gen intellectually. His intelligence and sneakiness.

In King, he underestimates Gen emotionally (and given what he learned about his diabolical scheming abilities in Queen, can you really blame him for assuming it was purely politically motivated, that all of this is part of the same scheme?) and physically (Even people in Eddis don't realize how gifted Gen is, remember the MAgus's guards in Queen, and how reluctant they were to leave him with Helen, despite Gen's presence). Eddis herself points out that Gen has taken great pains to portray himself as non-combatant, so is it any surprise that Teleus underestimates him in this regard as well?

I would argue that his underestimations in King are not an example of Teleus blindly not learning from his mistakes, but from the OPPOSITE. He's learned too well from underestimating Gen the first time, to be willing to drop his guard and see anything but conniving behind Gen now.

Let's also not forget that he takes full responsibility for the near assassination. I think few truly incompetent people rise to that kind of position of power, let alone hold themselves to such a ridiculous standard (remember, Teleus acknowledged that he had failed this time, and deserved death for it. That alone says failure is NOT an option for him, which itself implies [by his still breathing] that this is NOT a common occurrence for him.)

In short, if Teleus were a failure, Irene would never have been so foolish as to have put him in this position. Yes, his loyalty is admirable, but Attolia has not been so secure in her throne that she can afford to have kept an incompetent captain on staff if that is his ONLY asset. Also, Irene would have been dead at the hands of her barons or others many times over.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

You've pretty much summed up what I think. In much more coherance.

Much cookies to you. *offers cookies*

remember the time you tried to get Costis off Jade? Why don't you have Teleus instead. He is ___*, y'know.

* Checkers said not to mention this.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

I HEART TELEUS too, Jade!

One thing I really like is his friendship with Relius. Partly relating to the fact that they are both loyal to the queen. Gen says to Relius something like: you and Teleus are among the few she trusts enough to love.

When Relius is in the infirmary, Teleus visits him and later Relius tells Gen that Teleus isn't happy about Costis. So they talk a lot about stuff.

Plus that look on his face when he thought he'd have to torture Relius. Poor guy. Almost getting himself executed too!

*says nothing*

[netslefj.livejournal.com]

But do you think Teleus and Gen were not happy about Costis for the same reasons? I think Telwus still thinks the assignment is demeaning, while Gen is concerned for Costis' safety.

Also, what is the community "understanding" of Relius? I know he's loyal and has made himself a student of Attolia's character and thinking, but it's from him that She came to believe you must torture people - that mistakes are more likely the tip of a conspiracy. I don't don't buy Gen's reconciliation with him. I think Relius has a lot to learn yet.

Finally, this big brother relationship? You don't think that Relius and Teleus are unrequiteds? They are such rigid upholders of law and order and class stratification that I can't imagine them ever believing Attolia to be attainable, but their loyalty is rather fanatical for brotherliness, IMO.