What's with that green dress?

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

“dressed for dinner in a cool green gown the colour of sage leaves, was the queen of Attolia. Embroidered around the neck of the dress was a ring of flowers, white petals on the green ground, with delicate leaves a shade darker than the dress." - QoA

Why does Attolia wear green for the hand-cutting scene when she almost always wears red? In the KoA scene with her, Relius, and Gen, it's mentioned her wardrobe is fairly uniform. Not to mention her official "crown" and symbol of her authority as queen is the matching Hesphestia-style headband with rubies.

Perhaps she wore a random green dress for the hand cutting scene to match Nahuseresh, who is said in QoA to have different sets of emeralds sewn onto his clothing by his valet. At this point, Phresine says he should wear something to match better with rubies/red. (This is before Chloe says “something that goes better with the beard” and gets sent out.) It was Nahuseresh’s idea not to hang Gen, and Attolia might have wanted to compliment him by matching his clothes at dinner. Or as a subtle hint she can still make queenly decisions when she’s not wearing less regal clothing.

 

The man who brings Eddis the news of Gen’s capture says Attolia is going to make Gen pay for leaving things around i.e. those matching ruby earrings. So she must have been very angry for some random messenger to pick up exact intentions like that.

 

She feels angry because Gen had the audacity to think he knows what she likes. Deep down she does like them (she admits it later on) but she can't wear them because she feels she's being mocked. So she wears green so she doesn't have to think about the matching earrings while she cuts off his hand.

But then again, she could be wearing her ruby headband with the green dress anyway, which would chuck this theory down the drain. But Phresine, Attolia’s most senior attendant does specify confidently that red rubies and emerald green don’t match!

 

Of course it’s possible her red clothes were all being washed… What do you think?

Comments

[traboule.livejournal.com]

So, bear in mind that this answer comes after hours and hours of reading about literary theory and then, for a chance (hah), performance theory. I don't expect to get meta (shoot me if I do), but it might be a bit, um, overly pedantic.

My gut reaction is, hey, you're right, that is weird and I was actually wondering about that myself earlier.

My practical reaction is, yes, she does wear red most of the time, and as she is, as you mention, "dressed for dinner" and so shouldn't she be wearing red, given that dinner is a fairly big deal in the Attolian court and you'd expect her to be formal? On the other hand, she spends a lot of time in QA having dinner in private, which means she may be dressed more informally for a private dinner.

My academic reaction is, well, it's an important scene and you want to make things stand out. Green is nice precisely because it's not red, and this is a point where she doesn't do what other people expect her to do, i.e. granch or hang Gen. Most importantly, she's giving mercy, which is very unusual for the way she usually operates (yes, I know we could debate this point a little; I'm doing this fast and sloppy). So it does make a certain amount of sense that she be wearing an opposite colour for an opposite action. She's letting him live. That's important.

The flowers make her seem younger (more like an available girly girl) and more vulnerable, more feminine, which is useful again because she's providing mercy here, and because it's really at this point where we start to see her as more than this gorgeous, scary automaton. Different clothes actually do suggest she's a dimensioned person with feelings. Yes, she is actually being violent and barbaric (isn't the tension great - this vulnerable young woman is going around simultaneously chopping off hands and ordering doctors), but this is also the moment from which she becomes an attractive character - one we're interested in, one with possibilities.

For some reason, this dress ties in with Gen's memories of her as a little girl dancing (although I think she was wearing white in that...? I have trouble with that image because it reminds me too much of Miss Julie, if anybody else has been forced to read that one) and Attolia's own memories of her smashed amphora. I guess it functions the same way; it's something informal, something that suggests she has feelings.

OK, that's it. Can you remind me, is this the actual hand-cutting, or the decision not to hang? Because if it's the former, I need a new theory.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

The dress from when she danced under the orange trees (I've never been convinced she was actually a child) is described as "pale," so not necessarily white. The green dress is from the hand-cutting scene, so she knew where she was going when she put it on. Later Gen conflates the two scenes in his nightmares.
I've always wondered about the green dress, and emerald's theory is better than any I've come up with myself.

[fabricalchemist.livejournal.com]

...this gorgeous, scary automaton. Different clothes actually do suggest she's a dimensioned person with feelings

Dude. Wow.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

*snickers*
I wouldn't be too impressed - I'm currently paying people to teach me how to make faintly pretentious statements like that one.

English major = juggling seal.
Maybe.

[fabricalchemist.livejournal.com]

It was more the poetic quality of it. It really captured the transition you go through mentally reading farther into the books, and learning more about Attolia. <3

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Good question, Willow. I have no idea why the dress was green.

The description of the dress made me think of what a contrast there was between the delicate beauty of the dress and the horrible dungeon and violence that happened so suddenly.

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

It was Em. :-)

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Oh, duh. So it was. Super Em, not Super Willow.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

See, I can do non-cracky posts 0:-P

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

and not just any green, but a cool green, off-setting the heat of the fire and the tools heating up within.

[ivorysilk]

I'm new, so hi--also, I had a bit of the opposite reaction--I wonder if the green, a colour associated with the Medean ambassador, doesn't signify his influence over Attolia. The softness of the colour suggests both a decrease in her power (red is a very powerful colour, and the sage green is not), and a softening of her personally--because her decision is not a decision of her own power. It's a decision of weakness she was manipulated into, and her weakness is twofold:

(1) A quick death of Gen would have been the merciful thing to do--for Gen, but not for her, esp. not if, as is later hinted, she may have subconscious feelings for Gen even at this point. A quick death is what Gen wants, and what Eddis is plugging for as the most merciful thing to do. Gen is a proud man, and a young man--maiming does keep him alive, but cruelly. Also, at this point, there is no guarantee she will return him, and she may well have kept him, maimed and locked in her dungeon forever. It's the decision that does not offend the gods or tradition, and this must be acknowledged--but it may have an element of selfishness attached.

(2) Her decision is weak for her country. It angers Eddis, and incites her to war. It results in great loss for Attolia--war is expensive, both in financial cost and in human cost. In this case, until they get smart, it weakens both Attolia and Eddis--exactly as the Medeans hoped. And she was, as is later acknowledged, very much manipulated into it.

Also, the other thing is that the dress is emphasized to be delicate and soft and girly. There are suggestions it reminds Gen of the girl he fell in love with years ago, and Attolia herself keeps associating this moment where she amputates Gen's hand with a powerful memory of childishness and emotion. In terms of Gen, this incident obviously marks when Gen grew up from boy to man, forcing him to accept limitation and loss--but it also kills his childhood fantasy of Attolia. Childhood and maturity is a theme throughout this book, and there is a very deliberate echo in this scene of a younger, less powerful Irene. At least that is what it suggests to me.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

This works better! I love what you said about the softening of her personality. She always thinks back to her childhood and that broken amphora at the same time too.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Welcome!

Your descriptions of Attolia's weaknesses are right on and it must have about killed her to spare Gen, knowing it would make her appear weak, with repercussions that would last for years. MWT has said it was difficult to come up with a compelling reason Attolia would maim Gen but not kill him. Intervention of the gods is something Attolia couldn't ignore.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

I like it, especially the bit about childhood and age. I never thought of that as applying to Irene at this point as well as Gen, and I definitely see where you're coming from with the echoes of a younger, less powerful woman. That is a really great idea.

I'm not sure that what we're seeing in this scene is a decrease in Attolia's power, though. Is it? Just in really basic terms, she has ultimate power in this scene: she's physically destroying a man (boy? something?), as well as doing some pretty serious mental damage. And she can do that precisely because she has absolute power. Like a goddess, she can give punishment and healing at this point and reading it for the first time, her logic and motivations are incredibly opaque. I think that this is actually the point at which we see her most impenetrable, powerful, dangerous (and yes, simultaneously vulnerable...I love it).

Yes, the decision to spare and main Gen is a politically stupid one, but I think in many ways it's also an assertion of ultimate power. Unusual that someone as astute as Attolia would be self-indulgent enough to do something she likes despite its problematic political implications, but that may be another hint at fragility...actually, maybe she's also misread Eddis and her military. She may not have expected the war to be as bad as it was. We know Attolia doesn't really understand Eddis - she may have underestimated both queen and country, the way Sounis keeps doing.

Of course, this reading means that her decision not to dress like Hephestia is even harder to explain. Damn.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

So does that mean you're completely dismissing my theory, or does it mean I haven't expressed myself very well below? What I'm trying to get at is, Attolia decides not to dress like Hephestia because at that moment she is a)furious with Hephestia on some level for allowing her to capture Gen, and b)at risk of offending the gods with her actions -- thus not a good time to dress like one of them.

It is interesting that she owns the green dress in the first place, of course.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

No, not at all! I mean, I'm not dismissing your theory! Far from it! I was responding only to ivory_silk; your theory seems just about water-tight.

I totally agree, and I'd never even thought of Attolia refusing to dress like Hephestia because she was angry with the goddess until you said it. That's a really good point, and I can't add anything to it. I don't know where it fits in what I'm trying to articulate about Attolia, that's all. I'm just musing on about three different levels at this point because my brain has gone into overdrive.

No, I think you're dead right. Well spotted.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, well, I never thought of it before, either. That's why I was hoping someone would say, "oh yes, Philia, how brilliant of you!" (Funny how rarely that happens...) In fact it has always bugged me why Attolia chose to put that dress on, and I've always wondered how many other dresses does she have, given that she likes to appear in public in the red as much as possible. I see lots of authorial reasons for the green dress, but I've never thought of a good character one before.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, Philia, how brilliant of you!! (an extra exclamation mark for cybercookies)

No, it actually is a really good point and you're right about needing a good character reason for that dress...I'd maybe thought she was dressed down for a private dinner - planning to have some soup and do some private thinking - but it's sort of silly reason. Yours is much better.

On the other hand, maybe Emerald is right and they're doing the wash. Who knows?

(Just out of curiousity, why'd you choose Philia? I keep wondering if you're a mad Sondheim fan or a Classics student...although for all I know, you could be both)

[(Anonymous)]

Ha! Traboule, I AM both!!! Or was (in the case of Classics student -- my student days being long ago now). I love Sondheim, and I didn't even think of the Philia connection with Forum until just the other day. I played in the orchestra for that show, and Philia was far from my favorite character! And I was a Classics major until I became a Linguistics major, lo these many years ago.

However, the reason I am Philia is that I have this very tiresome theory that Philia is the mystery goddess at the end of QoA. Everyone else disagrees, has heard this a million times, and is now yawning, so I'll spare you my long explanation.

Thank you for the "brilliant" remark!!!! (Even though I begged for it). We all need some cybercookies now and then. You're brilliant, too!!!!

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, shoot, LJ has changed some stuff and I keep forgetting that I'm not logged in. That was OBVIOUSLY me,
Philia

[traboule.livejournal.com]

I actually found your explanation through some basic LJ stalking - um, research - about three and a half minutes after I made that post. But it's nice to know I was right about the Sondheim and Classics as well. What a nice and multi-use name you do have.

I'm perfectly willing to believe Philia is the mystery goddess - I couldn't for the life of me figure out who that was, but yours seems a very good argument. Brilliant twice. :)

Thanks for the brilliance! I could use some of that today.

[ivorysilk]

Actually, that's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that--possibly, she feels manipulated not just by the Mede (who she can outwit) but by the goddess-the first question she asks Gen afterwards is if the gods are offended, echoing Moira, and empahsizing why, in part, she did what she did. Good catch.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

I definitely don't think it's an underestimation of Eddis on Attolia's part--there's the scene when the Mede come to rescue her, and she has that little flashback to trying to explain the Eddisian fighting forces to Nahuseresh. I think she's aware of how powerful Eddis is, but confident that she'll be able to match her in power. Remember, the war starts out as a two-way one, until Gen sinks the Sounisian navy. I would almost, then, view it as a kind of dare--I've done this thing that's within my rights, how are you going to respond? And Eddis takes the bait and declares war.

Speaking of, what were the reasons behind the war? Fear of the Mede? Personal tensions/prejudices between two queens who rarely met?

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Ahem, Jade, maybe we need a separate post about the war? I imagine lots of folks would have something to say about that.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

I'll do it in a few days, then. :-)

not a deep thinker.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

You guys all think of such deep explanations for things. When I first read that my mind didn't go beyond green, opposite of red (color of blood), not what she usually wears... interesting. I probably could have thought of more if I had actually bothered to do it... but instead I read your posts and, since I find myself basically agreeing with everything said, my brain refuses to think of anything different/deeper than what was already said.

But the fact that I only had four(ish) hours of sleep last night and that I really should be going to bed right now might have something to do with that. *shrug*

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

There are two questions here, though: why did the author choose that dress, and why did Attolia choose it? I have no trouble answering the first -- it's the second I want to know about. So I like this idea of emerald's that Attolia's temporarily avoiding any association with the ruby earrings.

OR...wait, wait...she's not feeling just awfully happy with the Eddisian gods at the moment. Maybe she decided not to imitate Hephestia on this particular occasion, especially after being told not to offend the gods?

[meltintall3.livejournal.com]

But they're not specifically Eddisian gods, are they? They're the old gods, as opposed to the invaders gods.

Or at least... that's the impression I remember.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Well, my point is that she's associating the gods with Eddis, and she sort of despises them for betraying Eugenides. "I believe but I do not choose to worship." Dressing like Hephestia while supervising the cutting off of Gen's hand may just not seem like the thing to do, you know?

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

QUOTE LOVE.

*koffs*

My impression was that while people recognized them as being the "old gods" from pre-invader times, they're now mostly called the "Eddisian gods" because Eddis is the only one that worships the old gods.

It raises all sorts of interesting questions, though--I mean, we know the Eddisian gods are real, which gives the Eddisians reason to worship, but what about the invader gods? Are they real or not? And if not, how do the Eddisian gods--assuming they're the "real" gods of this entire area, and not just Eddis--feel about the worship of the invader gods? Or are the invader gods "real," only with jurisdiction over the invaders' home and not the Attolia/Eddis/Sounis area? What about the Continent? Are they polytheistic as well?

...huh. I didn't even know I had that many questions to raise. o_O

[meltintall3.livejournal.com]

...what about the invader gods? Are they real or not?

I like your explanation of why the gods are considered Eddisian. And, again, my impression was that the goddess Costis promised the cups to (she was referred to as Attolian) was one of the 'new gods'. And Gen is still alive, so... we have no proof positive that they don't exist.

Obviously, the old gods don't want their worship to die out--but are they willing to share?

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Yes, Philia. (That's part of why I raised the question--Philia took her name from that goddess, because she's a very big fan and proponent of her existence.) So if they do exist...how much is their influence?

These are the questions we may never learn the answers to, but they're fun to ask. :-)

[(Anonymous)]

I've never actually been convinced that Philia is a "new" goddess. She's referred to as an Attolian goddess, not an invader goddess. I would think that, as in real life, there were cults of different deities in different places. Sort of like saints today -- for instance there is San Pasqual, extremely popular in New Mexico as patron saint of the kitchen, but he's virtually unknown anywhere else. Maybe that's a lousy analogy. But the same was true of gods in ancient Mexico, and I'm sure other places all over the world. Your city or village or territory would perhaps have a patron god or goddess, but another place might have a different patron -- and they would not be denying your god's existence, they would just feel that it was their job to worship their own patron god or goddess, not yours.
Oops, I logged out already.
-Philia (as if you couldn't tell)

[meltintall3.livejournal.com]

And if Philia was only a local godess, it would make sense that Gen could pray to her while passing through Attolia...

*has no copy of KoA to check*

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

And it was Moira who told her how to catch Gen - maybe passing on a message from Hesphestia!

[cyberskiver.livejournal.com]

Thanks for bringing up this topic! I just read this scene a couple days ago. I really like what everyone's been saying, but I'm going to disagree.

To me, the green dress has always made the scene more disturbing. I don't think of it as a sign of Attolia's vulnerability, but of her cool detachment in a nasty situation. She comes to see someone basically be tortured, but instead of wearing a red dress (indicating passion, anger, or violence) she comes dressed for dinner. She's going to watch Eugenides get his hand cut off and then she's going to eat. So that's disturbing.

Also, it seemed strange to me that in a blood-soaked, smoke-filled room, she's wearing a cool green dress. It seems totally out of place. It could get dirty, but apparently it doesn't. Once again, she's untouchable and remote.

And if you read the scene, Attolia is very detached, either because she's seen this sort of thing happen a lot or she doesn't want to think about what she's doing. As she leaves the room, she's thinking about packing for a move. Attolia's coolness, contrasted with the way Eugenides is freaking out, makes the scene very powerful and very disturbing, I think. In this situation, Eugenides is the vulnerable one.

Still, I guess Attolia is more vulnerable than she thinks. Maybe it's Gen's vulnerability that defeats her, in the end.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

I think there are two layers to this question. You've definitely covered one of them--how she's going to go eat, how disturbingly detached she is from everything. But I think everyone else's answers deal with the other layer to it. Or the other layer and a half. It basically revolves around the authorial reasons for making it a green dress--which I do think have to do with showing her "vulnerability" as much as making her seem out-of-place and totally detached--but as we learn later on, she was so disturbed she went back to his cell and listened. So the green, retroactively, is a physical representation of her weakness. When you first read the scene you think "wow, she's so callous and unfeeling and freaky," but later on you find out that's not the case.

Whee! This is so much fun!

[traboule.livejournal.com]

*bounces up and down* That's what I was trying to say! Or what I wanted to say, anyway! Yes!

I love Attolia because she can be freaky and fragile at the same time.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

*bounces up and down back*

I know! I love her too.

[ivorysilk]

Ah, interesting--I wasn't sure if it was because she was going to go eat (which is very chilling, and adds to the horrorific quality of the scene) or she purposefully dressed inappropriately (odd, because the woman has people to dress her, after all.) It does have to be the former--but given the gravity of the situation--this moment haunts Attolia later--there has to be more going on. Also, she's going to dinner later with the Mede, who thinks he's won--because she let him, which is why I think that the green has something to do with him. Hmmm.

Interesting discussion!

[meltintall3.livejournal.com]

I had a new thought-- Eddis dresses in green, right? Could Attolia perhaps be throwing Gen's words about her being "More beautiful, but less kind" in his face?

After all--when he realised what was going to happen, he was ready to promise just about anything...