Question from a new member....

[chibi-amber.livejournal.com]

 Hello all! I'm new here.... I've been reading the Queen's Thief series since I was.... oh.... thirteen? So.... many years, lol. I've been lurking and reading here for a while, but I didn't have an LJ yet... now I do! 

Anyways, I have a question that has been nagging at the back of my mind for a while and I want your opinions...

T So...... my question is thus: Do you think Helen knew Gen was in love with Irene before he proposed to Irene? I've been looking for hints, and I found the conversation between Helen and Gen where Gen is asking her to let him go steal the Queen of Attolia, and he hints at his real reasons for going. But do you think Helen knew for sure, or just suspected? 

Well.... I think that's all.

Signing out!

Amber 



 

Comments

[inkasrain.livejournal.com]

Hi Amber! Nice to see you here :-)

I don't think, myself that Helen was aware that Gen was in love with Attolia; I don't think Gen was even sure for a good portion of the book. I do think that Helen was definitely aware of his focus on Attolia-- she tries to distract him from her repeatedly, and as you say, there were hints she picked up on which clicked into place later. But until that point, I think Helen just chalked up his obsession to trauma and a lust for revenge.

[chibi-amber.livejournal.com]

Ahh... that makes sense. Because I don't think she was completely oblivious to his... er... obsession with her, otherwise she would have been more surprised that he decided to go in the direction he did.

Thanks for the welcome! :)

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Welcome!!

I'm under the impression that he told her, eventually. They're very close, and Helen would never let him go so far as marrying Irene if she thought he was only after revenge. She says that herself, around the end of QoA. She had to have known he was going to propose, because all the ministers were there and such. The conversation Helen and Gen had after he unveiled his plan made me think he mentioned it then - not that he was in love with Irene, but at least that he planned to marry her. Adds a whole new level to, "they think I sent you. They think you did this on my orders", doesn't it? Poor Helen.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Welcome to Sounis!

I don't believe so. Helen certainly did not know at first, but over time there were little things she noticed that gave her hints.

-Gen not calling Irene anything but "she", like it was painfully for him to admit that Irene was the one who cut off his hand.

-His constant comments about hating "the Mede".

-His insistence that Irene was within her rights.

There is probably more, but I can't remember.

For me, the true dawning moment for Helen was when she realized Gen had picked up that raising of the one eyebrow habit from Irene. I've always wondered about that... Did he do it on purpose to tell Helen that he loved Irene? Gen is very calculated, and he seems so self-aware. I don't think he would do something like that unintentionally.

[bluestalking.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about the eyebrow.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Really? I've this feeling I'm overreaching.

[bluestalking.livejournal.com]

Well, I think Helen knows before then that Gen is...extremely preoccupied with Irene, but that could be for obvious reasons like she cut off his hand and was mean to him. The eyebrow doesn't fit hatred or fear, though--it's the kind of thing you pick up from people, consciously or unconsciously, by watching them, and replicate like you're trying to hang on to it.

At this point Helen knows he's been to Attolia fairly often, knows he thinks about Irene all the time, knows he will marry her, and finally knows that he's picked up her manners of expression. Even better, it's when Irene makes the same expression that Helen first thinks she isn't entirely horrible--like there might be a reason Gen would fall in love with her.

The hand makes it improbable, but Gen is sort of improbable a lot of the time. Helen knows that--so, yeah, I think that's a good guess for when she realizes he means it.

[bluestalking.livejournal.com]

Oh, but about him doing it on purpose, I am not sure. I think sometimes even he messes up and does things unconsciously. :)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Yep. Another possibility, but either way it was an important scene.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I don't think he consciously picked up the eyebrow thing. Often when you pick up mannerisms or vocabulary from someone it's a subconscious borrowing. You may realize what you're doing and either reinforce the behavior or try to stop, but that's more likely with words than gestures. Which is why I think you're right about the eyebrow being a defining point for Helen's realization. It's one of those "I sometimes believe his lies are the truth, but I have never mistaken his truth for a lie" things.

Gen is very self-aware about some things, but I don't think he was thinking through things that consciously and clearly when it came to Irene. There's a lot of confusion there. (I love the echo and amplification of "fiend from the underworld" in The Thief (183) and "she may be a fiend from hell to make me feel this way" (151) in The Queen of Attolia.)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

True. How long did it takes for HIM to realize he loved her.

[diadactic.livejournal.com]

She knows that he THINKS he's in love, but not that he is in love. Like a parent, she is doubtful of her cousin's choice.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Welcome! Nice to have you. I agree that Helen gradually realized Gen's burgeoning love (burgeoning...like that, eh?) for Irene and is troubled by it, even up to the last days before the wedding, when she tells Gen they can achieve peace by another method; he doesn't have to marry her. But everyone else already said all that, so welcome! Nice to have you.

My scrambly opinions and thoughts

[crazededdisian.livejournal.com]

I think Gen had that feeling of am-I-in-love and Helen noticed. In my opinion, he picked up the raised eyebrow thing around then. Seemingly, he had raised two eyebrows before. Helen knew that he tended to pick up things(habits, not earrings) from people he admired. His defending Attolia had Helen suspicioning, and when he proposed his plan... Eddis knew that the marriage was political, but Helen wasn't so sure. If her Thief wanted revenge on Attolia, this would ruin him. If it was just calf love, things would still be bad. But it wasn't.

And I think that though Gen is so good at hiding his feelings, he still couldn't hide everything. And his cousin, who was his friend, (and maybe the best at reading his mind) noticed.

[filkferengi]

Kind of like the way Sherlock Holmes referred to Irene Adler as "the woman?" Those Irenes are dangerous!

[emmaco.livejournal.com]

I've just re-read QoA (for the first time in years) today and I think Helen knew, at least at some level. I think that's why we see her tell the story of Hespira's mother being sad about her daughter going into the mine, and makes a remark that the mother had to get used to the idea, because that's what mothers must.