favorite dialogue tags
Aug. 29th, 2009 11:59 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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beafraidofme's post has generated a lot of talk, but I noticed in the comments (...or perhaps started and wished to continue) a bit of discussion about MWT's use of "said," in which we found she often uses it in order to illustrate pauses in a subtle manner, as "said" is a pretty invisible word.
So I thought, why not do a post in which we discuss our favorite dialogue tags in the books? (I mean aside from "the magus in question." :-b) Anything goes--it doesn't just have to involve "said."
So, er, have at it!
p.s. re: characters like Gen: in terms of the Disney movie Aladdin, someone suggested Costis = Abu. Thoughts?
beafraidofme's post has generated a lot of talk, but I noticed in the comments (...or perhaps started and wished to continue) a bit of discussion about MWT's use of "said," in which we found she often uses it in order to illustrate pauses in a subtle manner, as "said" is a pretty invisible word. So I thought, why not do a post in which we discuss our favorite dialogue tags in the books? (I mean aside from "the magus in question." :-b) Anything goes--it doesn't just have to involve "said."
So, er, have at it!
p.s. re: characters like Gen: in terms of the Disney movie Aladdin, someone suggested Costis = Abu. Thoughts?
no subject
Date: 8/29/09 04:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/29/09 04:15 pm (UTC)(er, that was an excited, WHEE kind of "I KNOW," not a peeved OMG I KNOW ALREADY "I KNOW." THERE IS A LOT OF EXCITEMENT IN THIS COMMENT.)
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Date: 8/29/09 04:30 pm (UTC)In the mean time, I'll settle for example for QoA:
Page 111, the story of Hespira and Horreon (the guy who's a lot like Hephaestus):
"I asked for a woman who chose to be my wife," said Horreon.
"I chose," said Hespira.
Page 161, Nahuseresh is talking to his slave, Kamet:
"Kamet, I've noticed in you a distressing tendency to err in your pronouns of late. You say 'if you attack', instead of 'if we attack'."
The secretary dropped his eyes and held very still. "Forgive me," he said.
Or on page 187, when Eugenides captures Attolia:
"I want to be king of Attolia," he said.
Or on page 191: "Before you make a decision," he said, "I want you to know that I love you."
In all these cases, by using short declarative sentences and the simple word 'said', the statements themselves are more dramatic and hold more meaning. I love it when an author can use the least number of words to create the biggest effect. When less words are used, you instinctively *feel* the meaning, which is so much more enjoyable that when too many words are used, and you're just being told what to feel.
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Date: 8/29/09 06:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/29/09 04:32 pm (UTC)Attolia smiled. "You make him sound like more trouble than he is worth."
"No," said Eddis thoughtfully. "Never more than he is worth."
****
I know *said* wasn't a requirement, but it just popped up there. But it's really appropriate in that sentence because, you know, she's saying something, and it's in the past tense and the word just fits somehow. ;^)
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Date: 8/29/09 04:37 pm (UTC)QoA old-school paperback p. 277:
"No," said the Thief quietly. "When I stole Hamiathes's Gift, I loved you then. I didn't understand it. I thought you must be a fiend from hell," he admitted, cocking his head to one side, "but I already loved you."
He said, "Before he died, my grandfather used to bring me to your palace so that I could see it for myself. There was a party and dancing one night, and the palace was full of people. I went to the kitchen garden to hide..."
The first paragraph is broken up by his admittance, by giving him a chance to cock his head before continuing, and then starting the next paragraph with "He said" gives you a moment of quiet stillness before he launches into The Revelatory Speech About Orange Trees, a chance to gather his thoughts.
(also I love the dark blue cover of this book because it perfectly matches this little scene--like, provides the perfect visual ambiance for the darkness of the cove and the waves of the water and and and.)
also who doesn't love things like page 401:
"Do you love me?" he asked without preamble.
"Why do you ask?" she answered, and he grimaced with frustration.
who answers with a question anyways
Socrates.:-D
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Date: 8/29/09 04:43 pm (UTC)JUST ANOTHER REASON THEY ARE PERFECT FOR EACH OTHER.
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Date: 8/29/09 06:31 pm (UTC)And it would work, too! She would always be showing people up with her logic
ruthless revenge-y-ness, revealing them for the fools they really are.*is now imagining Socratic dialogues between Socrattolia and Euthyphrenides*
I just can't help myself. And obviously, we just read Euthyphro the other day in Philosophy
Date: 8/29/09 06:44 pm (UTC)Euthyphrenides: Piety is doing things that please the gods.
Socrattolia: Pleasing the gods, you say? Now let us turn to a related question, my dear Euthyphrenides, that will surely help us get even closer to the truth about this matter of holiness. Why is it that humans should even worry about pleasing the gods?
Euthyphrenides: Well, Socrattolia, of course it's so that the gods will shower their favor on us!
Socrattolia: But what if those very same gods allow you to be captured, have your hand cut off, almost lost your eyesight, and ruin your health for the rest of your life, even though you did nothing wrong? *pointed stare*
Euthyphrenides: You know, Socrattolia, I would love to help you out with this, but I really must be going. I just remembered that I was on my way to something very important. Yes, very important indeed. *dashes off muttering about something about Ornon and his sheep*
Re: I just can't help myself. And obviously, we just read Euthyphro the other day in Philosophy
Date: 8/29/09 09:39 pm (UTC)Re: I just can't help myself. And obviously, we just read Euthyphro the other day in Philosophy
Date: 8/30/09 03:53 am (UTC)wait no that doesn't cover it
AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
*falls over, dead from lack of oxygen*
*fails at html due to lack of oxygen*
Re: I just can't help myself. And obviously, we just read Euthyphro the other day in Philosophy
Date: 8/30/09 09:40 pm (UTC)This comment is epic, just so you know. It made me happy. :D
*hands you oxygen mask*
Re: I just can't help myself. And obviously, we just read Euthyphro the other day in Philosophy
Date: 9/4/09 12:24 pm (UTC)seconds the motion
Re: I just can't help myself. And obviously, we just read Euthyphro the other day in Philosophy
Date: 9/4/09 02:29 pm (UTC)well, your comment was pretty epic as well! We had just talked about Euthyphro in my Plato class so...actually hold on, I just reread it, and I have to die laughing again.
Re: I just can't help myself. And obviously, we just read Euthyphro the other day in Philosophy
Date: 4/29/10 07:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/29/09 04:39 pm (UTC)If anyone has a copy of The Abracadabra Kid, would you mind posting the story of How He Learned To Use Dialogue Tags? I read that book when I was twelve, and it changed my writing for life. <3
no subject
Date: 8/29/09 08:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/29/09 04:48 pm (UTC)"From shadow queen to puppet queen in one rule," he whispered. "That's very impressive. When he rules your country and he tells you he loves you, I hope you believe him."
Has anyone else noticed how awesomely "whispered" is used?!?! She doesn't use it too often (with our fabulous all-purpose 'said' in its place), so when she does use it it's perfect, almost an onomatopoeia. You just want to lower your voice for that line, don't you?
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Date: 8/29/09 04:57 pm (UTC)KoA, pg 335 PB:
"Not because he's king," Philologos said, disgusted by their dull wits. "Because he has only one hand," he said, voicing the king's bitterness as his own.
no subject
Date: 8/29/09 06:00 pm (UTC)As for MWT, one exchange I really like is at the end of KoA:
... he dropped to his knees before her and laid the sword across her lap.
"My Queen," he said.
"My King," she said back.
It's a very important exchange, and this phrasing really allows the words themselves to take centre stage, without obscuring them behind fancy verbs or descriptive stage directions. "He said" and "she said back" really highlights the meaning of the exchange, I think.
Another scene that jumped out at me was the scene between Relius and Eugenides in the prison in KoA. There aren't actually that many saids in this. There are several sequences of dialogue with no tags or stage directions at all. I read them breathlessly, with a sense that the whole world had come to a halt and nothing existed except for this wonderfully intense exchange between these two men. I don't think it would have been anything like as intense if it had been cluttered with thesaurus verbs or stage directions.
Another example that comes to mind is this one from QoA:
"Then let us climb the stairs together," said the queen, and she turned away from him.
I love the rhythms of this sentence. It has a slightly storytelling feel to it - "said X" being a slightly less usual way of saying it than "X said." A few chapters later, you get:
"That he had been betrayed by his gods? I guessed," said Eddis.
I love this as a chapter ending. Again, it's a rhythm thing, and again, I'm not really explaining myself well, but... well, I like it. :-)
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Date: 8/29/09 06:02 pm (UTC)Also, "Take mine," she said.
which is one my absolute favorite quotes of all time, and made me laugh hysterically when I first read it.
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Date: 8/29/09 06:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/29/09 07:25 pm (UTC)"Well" -- he stumbled over the words -- "this explains all those nights without conversation at dinner."
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Date: 8/31/09 02:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/29/09 09:17 pm (UTC)Hmmm... Let us compare her use of "said" to another book. The book in question is going to be the one I'm reading right now.
From "Behind the Curtain" By P. Abrahams. A national bestseller, and highly recommended by Stephen King.
"Hello," said Chloe.
"Hi," said Ingrid. "Where'd you get that tan?"
Just popped out, uncool or not. But maybe the answer would be the Tannerama across from Blockbuster.
"Anguilla," Chloe said. "Just a weekend getaway."
Ong Willa? What the hell was that? "Oh," Ingrid said.
"Been there?" said Chloe.
"Said" was used four times in this short section. I only really notice it, if I pay attention.
From "The King of Attolia" by Megan Whalen Turner.
"Telues," said the king with a shrug and the queen was silenced.
"It was premeditated, then," she said at last.
Gods defend them both it wasn't premediated.
Costis pushed himself up from the floor.
"My Queen." He spoke as calmly as he could and looked up at her face as she turned to look down at him. He would rather have done anything than draw her attention.
"You have something to say?" She spoke as if her dog had suddenly sat up and begged to be heard.
"Said" is used twice, and "spoke" is used twice.
These sections are about the same length, and were chosen by random page flipping. If asked whether Mrs. Turner uses "said" more than some authors. I guess I would answer yes. If asked if she over uses it, no.
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Date: 8/30/09 01:07 am (UTC)----
From memory:
----
"Gutter filth can't fight its own battles."
"No, gutter filth gets drafted into the infantry and fights for a worthless king while hangers-on like you watch."
"Gen, that's treasonous!"
"Do I care?"
"Surprised, Sophos? His kind only ever serve themselves."
"Oh? And who elee are YOU serving?"
-----
....Actually, I seem to remember a lot of it. O.o
no subject
Date: 9/4/09 12:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8/31/09 12:39 am (UTC)On the other hand, I have read books--some very good ones--where the dialogue goes on for pages without any "he said" or "I said." One I'm thinking of is The Promise by Chaim Potok. I love that book, but there's a whole section of conversation, very tense conversation, where I've written in the initials of the speakers because even though there are only two of them, without an "I said" occasionally, I get lost. Whereas with MWT's books, I don't think I've had trouble following who said what in that manner. (This is not to say I fully grasp the meaning of what is being said...otherwise, neither MWT nor Gen would be as awesome as they are.)
Wow. Another long and rambling response...but the point is, while "said" can be overused, sometimes the absence of dialogue tags or stage directions can work against a story just as much.
no subject
Date: 8/31/09 02:10 am (UTC)In some ways, the neutrality of 'said' can be its greatest asset. How about exchanges like this one, which ladyofastolat mentioned:
"My Queen," he said.
"My King," she said back.
Gen and Attolia are two very reserved and controlled people when in public. In this exchange, we get that sparseness and restraint so central to their public interaction. A more descriptive dialogue tag would be inappropriate to the momentm, and ruin the effect.
And who could forget this?
'Diplomacy,' said Attolia, 'in my own name,'