is eugenides an "underdog"?

[cindy-pon.livejournal.com]

i'm part of the enchanted inkpot and
today's topic of the week is the underdog
in fantasy.

we had a huge discussion as to why
this is popular in fantasy books and also
who are under dogs in novels that we read?

of course, i brought up gen.
he is the best nonconventional hero i know.
a thief--and then a thief without a hand!

but some argued that being an underdog
is about status and power and gen actually
placed himself in powerless situations like
in THE THIEF for his own purposes.

i think that an underdog is one that faces
a situation that seems impossible to best,
a quest that is impossible to complete, etc.

or is the underdog more like the "average joe"
aka frodo of lord of the rings? since gen had the
privilege of royal training and backing? is GOOD at
what he does? do you think gen is an under dog
by your own reading definitions?

original discussion on inkpot is here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

hmmmmm.... good question. I'd never really thought of Gen as an underdog in the first book, mostly because he really held his own quite well and we all discovered that in the end he was way ahead of everyone else. But in QoA, I felt like he was the underdog because he had this huge disadvantage that he had to struggle to overcome. KoA is still up for debate in my mind. I guess it all depends on your definition of the word "underdog".
~toastisyummy

[peanut13171.livejournal.com]

Nope, never considered him an underdog. He is educated, intelligent, well-versed in swordplay & self-defense, and loved by (most of) his family, all of which gives him Power and a relatively stable personality. IMO an underdog is powerLess. S/he may have been abused and therefore have emotional issues to deal with.

Gen takes risks (getting himself imprisoned in Thief), he endures consequences for the risks (getting his hand cut off). In KoA he *plays* at being powerless. He pays a price for being thought a fool, but he does further his own and his wife's ends.

[cindy-pon.livejournal.com]

very interesting thoughts, toast!
and it is indeed tasty!

peanut--what about the idea of stealing
from THE GODS in THE THIEF. the impossibility
of it doesn't make gen an "underdog".
to me, the underdog is the shoe in to
lose. or did you never doubt gen's ability
from the start that he could complete the task?

or even if not, you still don't define
that as "underdog".
traditionally, wouldn't it be the person
you would NOT wager on?

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Quite. The underdog is believed to be the person who will lose.

I've never doubted Gen. He never loses, because he never gives up. He just keeps on coming back like a bad penny (this phrase is my mother's fault).

And he knows everything, which comes in handy.

[cindy-pon.livejournal.com]

great comments, nine!

so... reader expectation is
that gen NEVER FAILS? this is very
interesting to me.

he can suffer and he can seem like
he's on the edge in one form or another,
but *we* always expect him to pull through.

i need to think more on this.

because what fun is there in rooting
for a hero who we are certain will always
win? i think MWT has so deftly drawn gen
as a survivor that we forget how much we
fear for him in moments of the book.
or how much he fears for himself, his queen,
etc?

hmm.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say he never fails or makes mistakes. If he didn't, he wouldn't be human, he's just very stubborn. So... He may lose a battle, but he wins the war. It's not so much I believe he's perfect, I just have this unshakable sense of faith in him.

What's interesting in the QoA, is that Gen didn't lose his hand because of a mistake; but because the gods tattle-taled (for lack of a better word) on him. By doing so, they gave him the woman of his dreams, but he lost his hand.

He said himself he wouldn't be a king if he had two, but he also didn't back down from the engagement when Helen offered him a way out. He's knows what he should do, but he really doesn't want to, so he fights himself the whole way. I believe this is his most human quality. He's so complicated and often contradictory. Fathomless as Costis stated. It's part of what makes him Gen.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I'd say Gen lost his hand because of a mistake. He was cocky -- he didn't just sneak into the palace to spy, he also left earrings and made the Queen feel stalked. He also assumed the gods would always back him.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Yeah... Got a point there. He's was getting a bit careless.

I guess he assumed that if the gods were displeased with him, they'd drop him from the roof. He's learned to lived with that, but he didn't expect the chop-chop. But... I suppose they didn't tattle-tale on him because they were displeased, but because they had plans.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Well, let's see what the dictionary says.

1 : a loser or predicted loser in a struggle or contest
2 : a victim of injustice or persecution

I see an underdog as someone who is struggling against impossible odds and may win through sheer will-power. Gen (at least to me) always seem to be on top of the situation, and is fully capable of handling it (not that it isn't hard). He's been a victim, but as Helen said, never a helpless one.

If you ask me, Gen pretends to be an underdog, but is really the one pulling the strings the entire time. I think it's most prevalent in KoA. In TT, everyone at least knew he was skilled at sneaking around and opening locked doors. In KoA, no one knew nothing (please excuse my substandard grammar). Especially, poor, naive Costis. To them he was just an idiot, who couldn't even sit on the throne right. Boy, were they in for a surprise.

That sneaky little... I love him so much.

*hugs imaginary Gen doll*

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

Indeed, he's like a... a chessmaster. Although the odds may seem impossible to others, it's just because they don't know Gen is awesome personified.

But mainly I'm just drive-by commenting for ICON LOOOVE.

[diadactic.livejournal.com]

I was leaning towards yes, thinking about QoA, but then I thought about it some more, and I think more in KoA, but never ever entirely.

An underdog is universally predicted to lose in a competition, and when Gen is competing, somebody always knows he might win.

Gilly

[(Anonymous)]

Except those he's competing against

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Is part of the difference, maybe, in knowing whether someone will win or not? In Thief and QoA, I was never really sure that Gen would "win," at least that he'd "win" in a conventional way. I didn't know him well enough, or he seemed to be fighting overwhelming odds. I saw him as an underdog in those books.

In KoA, I had no doubt at all that Gen would win. I knew him through and through by then, and knew that even with terrible odds and tremendous setbacks he'd win. And, that when he did, it would be soooo sweet for him to show them all and flaunt it in their faces. So to me, Gen didn't seem so much an underdog in KoA.

[cindy-pon.livejournal.com]

love the comment, checkers!
i agree with you...in part.
BUT i felt that gen, altho i knew
that he was definitely wiley enough
to gain an upper hand on the situation,
definitely appeared to be an underdog to me.

he was homesick.
no one liked him.
in fact, the majority was
AGAINST him.
his queen and wife had to
pretend to despise him.

i wanted to believe that he would
overcome the odds--in fact, yes, probably
a part of me as the reader *expected*
him to. but i can't say that things
looked good for gen from my eyes for
most of the novel.

and king of attolia happens to be my
favorite in the series. MWT just outdoes
herself book after book.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Checkers said what I wanted to say. Because she's awesome like that.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Aw, shucks.

Dee

[(Anonymous)]

I think he was the underdog in many of his early fights with his cousins but it was those confrontations that helped him learn how to win I mean he didn't become the way he is over night

Re: Dee

[(Anonymous)]

o.o That's a good point! Do you think the way his cousins treated him was maybe a motivation to become the way he is? I can just imagine stubborn little-kid Gen resolving that he WOULD beat them, one day... knowing they'd always be older and stronger, slowly learning to be a better swordsman than they, honing his insult skillz and clevar chessmaster plan skillz... *tangent*

-Squight

Re: Dee

[(Anonymous)]

Love it!!!!!!!!! I totally see it!! :D

Re: Dee

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I've said this before somewhere, but -- I always think the cousins taught him to lie, by making him repeat things about his family. Gen learned that he could scream and cry and give in and tell lies and that none of it meant a thing, especially not that he was beaten -- he would get back at them in his own time.

Re: Dee

[(Anonymous)]

That's an interesting point so you mean it was because of the cousins gen learned that lying didn't matter. I never changed his circumstances?

jade

Re: Dee

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah. And the whole honor vs. public perception of your honor thing. Clearly other people in his society consider it shameful to grovel and beg for mercy and cry out in pain -- and lie. Gen learned to swallow that shame, because he was physically weaker, and then found that the groveling thing was actually a very useful behavior to have in his repertoire. And the lying, too.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

What a good question! Thanks!
Is someone an underdog because they don't look as likely to succeed as everyone else, or because they think they are less likely to succeed?
I mean, if they're an underdog and they win, they had it in them all along, so does that mean they weren't really the underdog?

It's all point of view... and how much faith you have! I have plenty of faith in Gen now, but back in the thief, who would have known what he could do?
I felt like Gen was the underdog while I was reading The Thief, because he takes on that role in the group dynamic. Even though he really has far more going for him than anyone thinks, he still struggles... Even if I had known more about him, his plan was such a gamble, and his opponents would have seemed so powerful --the Magus with his resources and knowledge, Sounis with his chest of gold and Attolia with her soldiers and guns... I might still have taken Gen for the underdog. He was proving himself by stealing the stone. And no one could have predicted the Gods to be so actively on his side.

Obviously Gen was the best contender, because he won. But how much is hindsight twenty/twenty, when we assume it was a done deal?

Granted most of the time, especially in QoA and KoA, I don't see him as an underdog at all. And I don't think he was the underdog with his cousins. They were nasty, but I bet he deserved it. :p

It all reminds me of Gen telling Costis about the difference between honour and the public perception of honour... :) The difference between power and its bright shiny trappings!

[pigrescuer.livejournal.com]

I don't think he's ever the underdog, but in KoA he's pretending to be one.

[adhunika.livejournal.com]

like most of the other commenters, I don't think he's an underdog, but I bet he was kind of an underdog figure in the eddisian court growing up. maybe.

he does pretend to be an underdog sometimes.

Kelso

[(Anonymous)]

I think he was with his cousins at some point. I mean I agree with the idea that he wasn't always gen-mazing I think he can pretend to be the underdog so well because he once was. But I also think he learn to deal with his cousins by the whole getting them back with his talent that they made fun of: stealing.
Gen is defintely not the Iunderdog in koa but I did worry About him in both sequals

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

No, I'm pretty sure Gen would never get into a situation where the odds were really stacked against him. He might take a 'professional risk' or two, but I really don't see him as an underdog. Any adventure or fantasy hero is going to face challenges, so I don't think facing challenges makes a character a default underdog. In the Thief Gen looks like one; he's resourceful, but seems so far out of his depth and is being manipulated by powerful forces. Then it turns out that he's a puppet-master that can give the magus a run for his money, and not really a dark horse at all. In QoA he checks out for a while after the gods betrayed him, but when he returns to politics he's back to playing to win. And then reading KoA was more like reading a Great Detective novel then an adventure. I was *sure* he would pull it off, and the suspense was in how it would be done. My theory is that the gods favor him because he's exceptional, not the other way around.

[cindy-pon.livejournal.com]

great thoughts anna!
tho i would venture that mortals
probably are better off *not* being
singled out by the gods--in most cases.
being favored doesn't come without a price?

[harlyn.livejournal.com]

Definitely! If Gen had known the gods would involve themselves I'm not sure he would have stolen the gift or wandered Attolia's palace at night (though he might have). But they're not really against him, just making his life more complicated. (BTW, this is a great discussion question!)

you changed my mind.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Good points!
I'm sure he doesn't see himself as an underdog, and that is kind of the answer, isn't it.

I've been imagining his odds, in the thief, from someone else's perspective --even someone who knows him well might call his plan crazy. But from his own perspective he clearly isn't. He knows his own odds. yeah.

(It seems so obvious now you've pointed it out! ;p)