Unbeatable

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

The YA fantasy showdown, aka THE ABSOLUTE BUZZ OF THE MOMENT HERE AT SOUNIS has gotten me thinking about Gen, and how he's, in effect, made of win.

Many people have said (as Eddis did in ACoK), "Gen is Gen." He always wins. I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, but it makes me think. Eugenides doesn't lose, and maybe it's just in his making. (Of course, winning isn't always what he wants to do. He doesn't want to be Annux, but it's sort of in the package, and he has the wits and guts so he that can be.)

He always wins, eventually, but I'm pretty sure that mwt has mentioned many times that she had to let him get caught in QoA. She had to let him fall, otherwise the stories would be nothing more than watching Gen steal, steal, and steal. What he lost in QoA led to even larger gains (if you could call them all that), but none of that would have happened if he hadn't been caught. Losing (sort of) was something that was actually for the better, as the ????? goddess helped him realize.

So is he really unbeatable? Does he really always win? Will he ever lose on purpose because it needs to be done (possibly with higher stakes than faking out Melheret in ACoK)? Will the wins just continue to box him in, increasing the already large dependence on personal connections to people he does love and trust (Attolia, Eddis, Sophos, the Magus, mow, maybe Costis?). Gen already seems susceptible to pressures, especially that the gods put on him. Would it just continue like this?

This is already a kind of muddled post, and I hope it's understandable, but here's another crop of questions:

The gods. They're on his side, we know (unless he offends them...), and the god Eugenides will save him from falls until it's his time. But how far does this protection go? I don't think the gods would save him from other deaths, unless perhaps they REALLY REALLY needed him to stay alive (I can't think of a concrete reason why). I don't think they'd ever go to lots of trouble to save his life, because he's the one that's risking it, and if he's really being the kind of person who comes close to dying all the time, they might not see the point in keeping him around as their chosen one (sorry, but is there a word for what he is? Dude with a thin veil?).

So how far would the gods go to save him? Can he die as easily as any other human, super ninja skillz aside? And what about the mystery illness?

Sorry about the depressing/possibly denial-inducing topic... :)

Comments

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Good question about the gods' protection. We've already seen Gen be saved from his own stupidity, e.g. he gets drunk and walks on rafters and crenellations (what a great word!) and he is saved. But if he were to continue in such behavior, willfully taking advantage of his favor, I guess you could say, maybe the gods would tire of it and let him fall. I would think that they would only deal with an unwilling subject for so long before they stop showering him with things like the love of his life and three kingdoms. He is stubborn and unwilling to a point, but he will also align himself with the gods' will, as we've seen, when they show themselves as forces to be reckoned with, if that makes sense. He's got enough faith that he will do what they want...eventually. If he were to lose that, maybe then they would find someone else to work through.

As to the mystery illness, I don't think it's anything. In QoA, his health was broken. And he died, or nearly did in TT and was in prison for months, so his poor body has kinda had it rough. Then he nearly had his guts fall out of him in KoA, so I really just think he has a sickly constitution now. He's not as strong as he used to be because of all that he's been through. In my opinion, there's nothing more than that.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I agree that the protection of the gods will continue only for as long as Gen aligns himself to their will and does not take advantage of their protection. He seems to be coming to terms with combining what they want for him and what he wants for himself.

I am still not convinced that Gen has a mystery illness. His body is definitely weaker than it was before all calamity befell him but I really think he is using this to his advantage in some way. I mean in QoA he had Galen leaving "ever increasing amounts of lethium" (I think that's what it says) in his room while he was planning the destruction of Sounis' navy. He has a history of pretending to medicate himself to confuse people about his true condition. It didn't occur to me until he was matched against Westley in the showdown but since then I have wondered if maybe he is taking poison in small doses. It is evident that his being poisoned is a very real threat as sand is still being poured on his food and he has Medes in his palace.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

That's a really good point about the poisoning. It's not a threat he would overlook.

And yeah, it's interesting how, but ACoK, both Gen and Eddis have definitely accepted the fact that they're tools (ish) of the gods, and it's Sophos who's caught off guard by it.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I think the gods will protect him only as far as making certain the residents of Eddis, the gods' chosen people, are saved from the explosion of the Sacred Mountain. And after the events in ACoK and the marriage of Eddis and Sounis, that safety might be assured.

Wait, wait. There's the invasion of the Medes, too. So maybe he'll be protected from harm as long as that threat exists.

Then he's on his own.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

I never thought about it that way, that maybe the reason behind it all is to clear the Eddisians from the mountain. Could that happen if Gen didn't exist, or if he wasn't someone with power? Perhaps things would have worked out alright if Eddis HAD married Sophos' uncle, as we pretty much know she was prepared to... But, I guess, any safety the Eddisians could have in Sounis would be worthless if the Medes could conquer it easily, and the only way THAT wouldn't happen is if all three countries are united. So the Gods need Gen, in order to truly keep the Eddisians safe.

My initial reaction to what you said was to argue that ALL the people in S,E,&A are the gods' original chosen, even if they adopted the invaders' gods. But you're right that the overall goal is the Eddisians' safety. Ahhhh, understanding. Thank you. :)

And it does seem unlikely that the gods (exept Eugenides) will keep watching over Gen when the job is done.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Will he ever lose on purpose because it needs to be done (possibly with higher stakes than faking out Melheret in ACoK)?

I could totally see this. I've been nervous about the Rosemary Sutcliff parallels for a long time because she has a number of heroes who die...heroically and for the good of their people. I hope that MWT doesn't go that direction, just because I love Gen, but it totally could. And I think the fact that it could says something, whether that scenario actually plays out or not.

There's also the idea of losing something to gain something greater--Eddis for Attolia. For these characters (and actually, I love this) no choice is without a price. You don't get to choose true love and waltz off into the sunset. You have to deal with the personal and political ramifications of your choice.

The gods--I think it's hard to say at this point. Clearly the gods are still protecting him. And remember, as far as the falls go, that's Eugenides-the-god specifically, not Hephestia or Moira. But in general, I'd say that Turner depicts a sympathetic and benevolent pantheon--think about Moira with Sophos in ACoK, for instance--so I feel like they might intercede for him in any case.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

That's true, that all of the gods do seem to be, as you said, sypathetic and benevolent. (Except for Aracthus, but he was, well, doing his job.) Maybe they know him so well that they CAN save him when needed, while being sure that he won't need to be constantly stolen from danger. And whenever he's in a trough of self pity, there are always those helpful reminders they send him....

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

"Will the wins just continue to box him in, increasing the already large dependence on personal connections to people he does love and trust (Attolia, Eddis, Sophos, the Magus, mow, maybe Costis?)."

Wonderfully put on the confining nature of his wins.


Interestingly, I have had friends not get into the series due to his winningness. Basically, they felt he was too good at everything and won so much that it was unrealistic. Has anyone else ever got this response?

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I wonder, though, if he sees it as losing something, when he has a circle of people he can trust? It means he can potentially be hurt more, but I don't think he sees it as losing.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

I think the problem is that he shouldn't trust them--politically, it's not such a great idea for another king or queen to be your best friend. It could blind you if he/she schemes against you (although of course I doubt that will happen), or cripple you if you have to make a decision for the greater good that will harm him/her.

It's the same distinction the Magus made in ACoK. "...That when you meet again, it must be as king and king and not as friends."

As of right now, he appears to be dealing with it by using public and private personas (interestingly, they usually match up to day and night--he's Attolis in the day and Eugenides in the night, although there are exceptions), which are growing further and further apart. They have to act completely differently.

Poor Gen... :-(

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

That's true. I guess I assumed they wouldn't conspire against him just because it's Eddis and Sophos, and even if they weren't personal friends, he's the Annux. But if something came up and they thought they had to, I can see them making a political decision as kings, not friends :( It would be sad, though.

It's also sad that he thinks he can't be himself and king at the same time.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yeahhh.

And the thing is, the more that Gen needs to be king, the more momentous decisions he makes, the more he has to do things that might not be so great for his cousin and friend, the more he'll NEED someone to relax and unwind with, someone who can understand him. (A therapist, uh huh...) Is this too much of a burden to put on Attolia, because she seems to be one of the few he can find respite in?

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I think Attolia has been isolated for so long that it might be good for her to have someone depend on her.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if he would see it as losing (I tend towards him not thinking this way) but all of his wins have narrowed the possible paths and decisions he can make. When he was "just" the Thief he had a lot more options than he has now. That is how I see him boxed in.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I like that! I've never thought of it that way, but it makes a lot of sense. He's definitely less free.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Just from a physical standpoint, he didn't always win. He would lose those fights with his cousins. I just reread QoA, and Eddis was remembering his "periodic, disastrous losing battles". So he can lose. But that probably taught him ways to "cheat" at winning.

I've also thought that he came to see losing to Attolia in the beginning of QoA, and losing his hand, as a sort of winning, when the ???? goddess asks him if he would have his hand back, and lose Attolia, and see Attolia lost to the Medes... (I love this book so so much - ahhhh.) The gods deliberately sided with Attolia there, so that eventually the Eddisians would have reason to leave the Sacred Mountain.

I don't think they would step in and save him, though; I think you're right about that. They only interfere when they need to.

And I am in denial about his mystery illness. IT DOES NOT EXIST, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Mmhm, about the hand.

Oh, the cousins! I forgot about them (how could I???) I think that losing to them probably taught him how to win (yes, even if the queen's guard thinks it's cheating.)

And I agree with the others about his health being broken, nothing much more. Yet it has to come into play sometime in the future, either as a haha-gotcha moment or an ooh-gosh-something-bad moment, because mwt is mwt, and she brought it up!!!

[amolegere.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of something Brent Weeks said in an interview. He said that "George R. R. Martin is another giant. He showed me that if you actually kill or maim a major character or two, the next time you put a major character in danger, readers worry." Well, I would say that after Pol and the hand incident we have plenty of cause to worry.

But look at it this way, we still have two more books promised, right? So for now I can live in warm fuzzy denial. It's when she announces that it's the last book that I will start to worry and lose sleep.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

So twue. If a character has almost died repeatedly, I never worry when they're falling off a cliff, because, gulldarnit, they didn't die THOSE TIMES, they ain't gonnna die now. (And after the fight in TT, I was thinking, "No way! Two of the main characters did NOT just die now!") And even though no one huge has died since (except Sounis, I think...), I never don't think someone might.

We'll all be like that, eh? I just hope we don't lose any sheep...

[amolegere.livejournal.com]

Teehee, sheep >.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

sheep! hahahahahaha

[filkferengi]

It's astonishing how a book can change the world. _The Little Prince_'s fox had the color of wheat; we have words like "sheep." Does that mean mwt has tamed us? No one ever said she was a *tame* author.

;)