Tools

[creative-lefty2.livejournal.com]

So, I've been re-reading The Thief and have just reached the part where Gen is talking about tools. As the Magus tells Gen "No one would mistake you for anything but a tool" (57). Gen then gets all annoyed and touchy. But really, Gen is a tool, and not just to the Magus. He is a tool of the gods, who are keeping him around and protecting him for some over-reaching purpose that has something to do with defeating the Medes, or so I presume. This leads to the second half of the quote: "If a sword is well made, does the credit go to the blacksmith or to his hammer?" (57). But since the gods are controlling Gen, and many people no longer believe in those gods, the tool will get the credit.

I think this is what Gen is trying to forget in the wall scene in King of Attolia, where Gen is a philosophic drunk. He is the gods' tool, and he does not want to be. It has relatively little to do with him being king, especially considering that he is king because of the gods intervention. You get the impression that Gen tells you what he is trying to forget when he is chatting to Costis, but I want to bet it is deeper than just Gen not wanting the gods' gifts. Overall, it is not gifts that are the problem, but catching the gods attention and having them realize that you might be useful to them...which is what happens to Gen...and Sophos...and Eddis...and others who have not come to light yet.

Thoughts?

And this is more a random aside that I've always wondered about: does anyone know if MWT has any sort of background in geology? In her stories it seems like the world has been created with a mind to geological processes and there is a greater variety of rock types than one usually finds in fictional books., which indicates, at the very least, Geology 101.

Comments

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Great topic wish I could stay and discuss! :-/


Stupid chem exam..!!!

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

does anyone know if MWT has any sort of background in geology?

Megan seems to have an interest in just about every subject covered in a college course catalog. She's a very curious sort, and has access to all sorts of information.

: )

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Gen sings, "So what? I'm still a rock star..."

Okay sorry my thoughts can't go any deeper at the moment. Assignment due, you know. 0=)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh... Gen quoting Pink is so wrong yet so right.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Oooh I'm so glad somebody else gets this... I was afraid I'd been up too late studying!

(Come to think of it, "Please Don't Leave Me" is pretty perfect from Irene's perspective...)

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

I don't see anything wrong about it, myself...

[katecoombs.livejournal.com]

It's the classic fate vs. free will question, isn't it? Very well said!

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I think this sums it up concisely.

[liereicarine.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts. Yes, Gen is a tool of the gods, but compare this with Eddis saying "If I am the pawn of the gods, it is because they know me so well, not because they make my mind up for me."

I suppose although Gen is a tool of the gods, he is super sensitive about the subject because he objects that the gods (or the magus) should get sole credit. He has to suffer too. I disagree with the tool getting the credit only because many don't believe in the gods - I feel that the tool deserves much of credit because it is his own effort too. The gods intervened, but then when they did so they didn't make things easy for Gen. They got him caught, his hand cut off, and he had to deal with that and recover. They pushed him right to his limits, but not beyond, and Gen is the one dealing with being pushed so far. So they were catalysts, but without the raw material they could have done nothing, you know?

Gen actually has a kinda passive-aggressive attitude towards being acknowledged as someone powerful - he doesn't want to be outed as an effective King, yet as Thief in Eddis he frequently stole things to make his presence known. I think as the series goes on he'll be better at claiming credit directly for what he does... Which makes me wonder if there will be a day he thinks himself more powerful than the gods? And then something bad might happen to him. But hopefully not; he feels the gods' power so much. :)

So in the talk with Costis, Gen probably wants to forget being a tool of the gods because it is just so scary knowing that they will push you right to your limits to achieve their goals. To them, their goals are always the most important. They can mess up your life or drop you from a fall whenever they want, whenever they decide you're not useful, and Gen doesn't know when that is. And they've almost gone over his limits before, like when he sacrificed the lamb at the end of QoA demanding to know what the gods were doing to him - I bet that wasn't part of their ideal plan.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

This was said so well, I can't even add anything to it. Yes.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Also a note: there's definitely choice involved. Gen could have chosen to go to the university and study during QoA. He didn't. Maybe the gods knew how he would choose, but they didn't force his decision. (Which is, essentially, Eddis's quote in practice.)

EDIT: Which is all to say that I'm not sure Gen is a tool of the gods. Hammers, to take his example, don't make choices. Gen does. Perhaps assistant?

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I like what you said here. I agree that tool is not the best word to describe it. Gen has a personality, thoughts, feelings, he makes choices. And the choice he has to make really boils down to working to further the will of the gods or not. For someone as arrogant and prideful as Gen bending his will to anyone else, even if they are gods, is not going to be easy to do.

[creative-lefty2.livejournal.com]

I agree with Gen being testy because he wants a part of the fame. He actually says that in TT. Another part of his frustration of feeling a bit like a tool is that he does feel, like Eddis said, that the gods know him so well that they can predict what he will do.

Of course, this brings us around to free will and whether it actually exists in Gen's world. True, Gen proposes going to the peninsula to study, but he does not go. Is that because the gods knew that he would be "happier" in Attolia?

And with the gods making everything difficult for Gen, they could be telling him that he is only human, trying to prevent him from getting god-like aspirations (which I actually find to be an intriguing idea. As Gen tells Telleus, "I can do anything.") It would be so interesting to see Gen get some hint from the gods about what will happen and what he should do, and he goes and does something that he thinks will work better, and then everything turns sour...it could be fascinating! And an interesting test for the characters. (Shoot. Suddenly I want the Medes to win.)

Sorry this is so rambley, it's just that you made so many interesting comments and points that I felt I needed to comment back on.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

And with the gods making everything difficult for Gen, they could be telling him that he is only human, trying to prevent him from getting god-like aspirations ...

He also claims to be omniscient at one point in KoA. On the wall with Costis, if I remember. There are a lot of connections made between Gen and the gods, even on the individual-word level. I find this a fascinating idea, too.

There's just so much to say on this subject. Consider the quote in my icon, for instance. "I believe that the veil for him is always thin, and he walks through the world gingerly." Gen has certainly learned to be wary of the gods---at this point he's been their tool (or assistant) so often that the only thing he's sure of is that he never knows what they're going to need from him next. How does that play in? The relationship between Gen and the gods is twisty-turny to the extreme.

Gah. Edited for legibility.

[liereicarine.livejournal.com]

In response to the veil being thin: Might mwt make Gen a god? After all, Eugenides (the god) was once mortal. If Gen ever did something great, or if mwt made this beautiful tragic story for him with losing Irene (shudders) to save the world, the gods could easily award or offer him godliness. Oh - I could see them coming to Gen after he defeats the Mede and offering him the water of life (forgot the exact name). If Irene was dead, Gen might be like: Yes, I will leave this mortal world forever and play harps above. Alternatively, he might want to die in a mortal way, to follow Irene.

Or if Irene were still alive, Gen would of course refuse immortality to remain with her. Romantic!

[katecoombs.livejournal.com]

I dunno. If Irene died, I could see Gen mourning her in a really mad, bad, way that would make for a whole new adventure because he'd care even LESS about taking risks! (You want me to take on the whole Mede army? Sure, why not?)

Gen as a god doesn't seem nearly as interesting to me as Gen the very human guy that he is...

[creative-lefty2.livejournal.com]

I agree. Gen cares a lot for Irene. If she faints at the sight of his blood, I can see him going ballistic at her death. We also have to remember that their religion is based on the Green religion, which includes an afterlife, which I'm sure Gen believes in. (He does volunteer to send one of his courtiers there, after all, to gain an interview with Gen's cousins about a certain matter concerning a water butt.)

Also, for me, gods, over all, are rather boring. They sit up there and act all righteous and debate the fate of mortals. They don't really do stuff. (OK, this is reminding me of Diana Wynne Jones' "Homewardbounders," what with some powerful entity sitting out there playing board games with humans as playing pieces.)

So, yes, Gen the human is much more interesting!

[liereicarine.livejournal.com]

<3 rambly-ness when discussing Queen's Thief. :)