Intro and Questions

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Hi, Sounis!

I was just in The Conspiracy Room. Awesome! I decided to give up on the plan of backreading every single post before asking any questions. If it's already been talked about to death, just tell me, and I'll find it eventually.

1. This only makes sense if you've read the short story about Eddis in the KoA paperback:
When the wax disk re-appears, it seems like Helen remembers everything. Does that include the comments the gods made about her Thief? And do you think she ever said anything to Gen's grandfather as a result to encourage him in training Gen?
And did it help her have a little more patience with him when he was being a ridiculous imp than she ordinarily would have? (when he was very young, before he had proven his awesomeness)

2. I asked in chat if there had been any discussion of the multiple references in CoK to Gen's ill health, and was told yes (sand colic!) but that infertility hadn't been discussed. It was one of the first things I thought of, though. What does anyone else think?

3. Gen's relationship with his attendants is definitely not ignored in CoK. I was kind of surprised that Philologos, who'd seemed to have such potential, took a back burner to Ion and Hilarion. Any thoughts on that?

(I will have more questions soon, I am sure.)

And here is the intro part, which is not as interesting to me: Stuff about me is in my LJ profile. I was made to read The Thief last year and thought it was quite clever, although I wanted to smack Gen until the last chapter or so. A month or two ago I stumbled onto The Queen of Attolia, and that was when I fell head over heels for the brilliance. I exhorted my husband to read the books, and when it became clear he was not reading closely enough, began reading them aloud to him so I could make sure. ("See? The oatmeal incident!!!") Gen breaks my heart in such a good way. Plus, being a Thief would be super-cool.

I am so glad this community is here!

Comments

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Hi! Welcome!

It's so interesting that you're asking about the attendants, because a few weeks ago, when I reread ACoK, I was wondering about the sudden shift in the way they were described, and most of the smart people in the comments pointed out that it's POV - that KoA is from Costis's point of view, and here we don't have that benefit (unfortunately).

Here's a link to it if you want to read it (ha, it's ages back, you probably wouldn't have found it even if you had looked): http://community.livejournal.com/sounis/408528.html

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Oh OH and I checked out your profile and - you like Susan Cooper? You were referring to "by Pendragon's sword the Dark shall fall", right?

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

1) Thank you for the link. What I was wondering was a little bit different - I'll have to rephrase. Clearly, Gen does not realize how loyal some of his attendants have grown, which we did see through Costis's eyes as well as through Sophos's. What surprised me was more of an author's choice thing - that in KoA I felt we were able to develop a lot of sympathy for Philologos, but then in CoK, her only mention of him is to have Gen specifically mention his disappointment, and instead she gives us a lot of insight into Ion, and a bit into Hilarion, too, I think. So now she's built up three different attendants, and kept the theme of his relationship with them going, and I sort of wonder where it's going to lead.

2)Yes, I love Susan Cooper, her Dark Is Rising books especially. And, yes, I named my LJ for it, even though I joined in the throes of Harry Potter fandom. I always admired Cooper as a writer more, and her world and her characters. I am so, so pleased that somebody got the reference. :)

The Dark Is Rising

[filkferengi]

Along with Susan Cooper, Julia Ecklar won the 1997 Pegasus Award for Best Sorcery Song with "The Dark Is Rising." I haven't been able to find the lyrics online, but I've uploaded a few covers of the song here:

The Dark Is Rising (Susan Cooper & Julia Ecklar).zip (21.6 MB)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/6x6ha7

I hope y'all enjoy them. If anyone would like more info about the different artists, just let me know.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

I asked in chat if there had been any discussion of the multiple references in CoK to Gen's ill health, and was told yes (sand colic!) but that infertility hadn't been discussed. It was one of the first things I thought of, though. What does anyone else think?

They haven't been married all that long, have they? It's only been about three months in KoA (98 days to destroy the house of Erondites), and it still can't be more than 18 months in CoK, so that's a really short amount of time to be talking about infertility already. Remember that in KoA, a lot of the population of Attolia assumed that Attolia hated Gen and were pretty shocked when they kissed after the assassination attempt, so I would assume that as a political issue, infertility would take second place to a belief that Gen wasn't "man" enough to have sex with their queen, let alone knock her up.

I guess there's nothing there that rules infertility out, but I don't think there's much there to suggest it, either. Not that that would really rule anything out in this series, though.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Remember that in KoA, a lot of the population of Attolia assumed that Attolia hated Gen and were pretty shocked when they kissed after the assassination attempt, so I would assume that as a political issue, infertility would take second place to a belief that Gen wasn't "man" enough to have sex with their queen, let alone knock her up.


XD Lol, that made me laugh so much!!

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

You know it's true! I can just picture the image that most Attolians have in their heads of their marriage, especially with the whole arrangement with separate rooms.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Welcome! It was sad that the attendants weren't in the book much, but as you said, they just aren't part of Sophos' story. Love the part about Gen and his boots, though. Such a turnabout by the attendants who now seem to want the king's approval and trust.

I will have to read the Eddis story again...

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Yes, the part about the boots was sad. I was actually surprised how often Gen's relationship with his attendants did come up from Sopho's POV, which is why I started to wonder where it was going, story-wise. And why mwt chose to shift from showing us insights about/from Philologos to Ion. I feel like it must be going somewhere.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I also think it is a little early for them to be concerned about infertility. Not enough time has passed and if it was an issue history has shown us it would probably be assumed that it was Irene's problem, not Gen's. I'm also not entirely convinced Irene is not pregnant already.

I am a firm believer that Gen's illness is all obfuscation (this could just be my wishful thinking but I'm holding onto it). The stuff he's drinking could be part of the ruse. In QoA he had Galen leaving him larger and larger amounts of lethium while he was planning the attack on Sounis's navy and it has the effect he wants because Relius reports it to Irene. So Gen has a history of pretending to be worse off than he actually is.
OR
He could be building up an immunity to poison. It is obviously very much a threat as sand is still getting in his food.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

I'm also not entirely convinced Irene is not pregnant already.

Ooh, really? What makes you think that?

*imagines what Gen and Irene's child would be like*
*cowers in fear*

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I've never actually posted this here before because I think I might be nuts for reading it this way. So if everyone wants to tell me how crazy they think I am I won't be offended. The first time I read Conspiracy I read it out loud to my husband on an 8 hour car drive so that could account for it.

On p190 in the scene where the four monarchs are dining together it says this: "When Gen had complained earlier that evening that Petrus, the palace physician, should stop fussing over him like a worried old woman, Attolia had asked archly, 'And me as well?'

I actually stopped right there and thought, "WHAT???" Because I was thinking she meant "And do you want him to stop fussing over me as well." rather than "And do you want me to stop fussing over you as well." (Which is what the rest of the conversation implies she meant.) BUT it was Gen that gave that implication to her words with his line about the sleeping with two knives under his pillows. Reading what she actually said could be taken either way. And Gen coupled his rather dramatic statement with the equally dramatic action of falling to his knees before her which seems like it could be misdirection.

Try as I might I can't read it any other way now.

And yeah, Gen and Irene could certainly produce fear inspiring offspring. I will cower with you. :)

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I have to say I agree with you - whether I'm choosing to interpret it like that because I don't want Gen to be sick or whether it's based on text, I'm still not sure :)

I think I really read it like that, though - I remember when I first started reading Sounis, the first thing I noticed was that people were worried about sand in his food. Other than him going hungry (and I assumed that he could always steal into the kitchen when he needed to), I'd never even thought of poison.

[amolegere.livejournal.com]

Hey! We met in chatzy and I just wanted to say welcome again! I haven't got much to add in the knowledge department other than that maybe we don't see Philologos as much because Sophos was narrating instead of Costis, who spent more time with more of the attendants.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Yes, I remember meeting you. There were all of three of us there!

Yeah, I was just wondering, I guess, about the choice to not have Philo be the attendant assigned to Sophos, so that instead of seeing more of him, we see a new side of Ion -- which is cool, but poor Philo doesn't get any of our love. All we hear of him is Gen showing how stupid he is about people, taking the guy we thought was most likely to be becoming loyal and insightful and dismissing him specifically, going all the way back to the Sejanus thing. Philo, I thought, showed some fibre in front of Gen post-Sejanus, and I'd have thought Gen saw that
as hopeful. But for a guy who thinks so much of himself, he doesn't seem to believe anybody else could. And it's so sad. And also ironic because he can manipulate people so well, but is still so clueless. And then I start thinking about how he got that way. And now I'm rambling.

[amolegere.livejournal.com]

I'm sure we'll see more of him in the next book because it was supposed to be a continuation of KoA, wasn't it? I was glad to get another view point on some of the other attendants, it's always nice to know that they really are human beings and not little Nahuseresh clones.

I know! Poor Gen! That whole book had be flipping between cheering Sophos for dumping him on his aloof backside and wanting to hug him. I really feel bad for the poor guy! It's like he's stuck in the middle of a tug-of-war game.

[katecoombs.livejournal.com]

The thing about Gen's health is that he pretty recently survived near-evisceration, and that takes time to heal! I think sometimes modern medicine gives us the mistaken idea that major injuries heal really quickly, but that kind of serious wound would take months to heal even today. So I think he's getting better (by the time frame of CofK), but hasn't healed all the way quite yet.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

So true. Even in modern times it takes way more time to recover than is generally depicted on TV (get shot in the chest, back chasing bad guys next week), so our perceptions have been warped.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

This is a good point and Gen's wandering about so much after the initial injury probably didn't help. So says the girl that went to Target 5 days after both her c-sections.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Hello again! See, I told you the questions wouldn't get lost in the introduction! Sounisians love to think, eh? Welcome, welcome, welcome!

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Ah, well, I did put the questions first. But, yes, very juicy thinking. :)

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

o_O! I forgot! The whole poison thing is brilliant! Remember in The Princess Bride when the little guy (bad memory, remember) did the shell game with the poison in the glass and the Buttercup's "as you wish" guy had to figure out which one had poison in it? And the little guy had taken little doses of poison all along so he wouldn't drop dead? At least that's what my brother said happened, because of course, I remember the scene but not the details, bad memory, which makes it nice, cuz then I can watch movies a million times, cool. So that happened, right? So you think that's what Gen's doing? Because that's awesome.

We're All Reprobates!

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Honestly... Infertility wasn't even a blip on my radar, because in these types of societies troubles with getting pregnant were automatically attributed to the woman. And I mean automatically. When the marriage of Catherine de Medici and Henry II had troubles with reproduction, Catherine launched herself into an obsessive study on quack cures and creepy potions. Henry? Did nothing except berate his wife. Their problem was eventually fixed when a doctor discovered an abnormality with both their reproductive systems.

When it comes right down to it, these were essentially sexist societies, and even though Gen himself is not a sexist, he would be influenced by the medical thinking of the times in which he lived. The doctor may treat both of them for infertility, but he would certainly be treating Irene first and foremost, assuming the medical issue was mainly a problem on her part.

And another thing, I honestly don't think they want kids just yet. There's already enough double-trouble brewing in the court cauldron, you know? And even if they were trying to have kids, why would Gen have purposely dropped the cup?

I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly unlikely. It's actually more likely he's drinking the concoction as some archaic version of birth control, which would explain why he doesn't like it. In my opinion, he's still recovering from being gutted in the courtyard with the knife, amongst his previous injuries which have put strain on his long term health.

Re: We're All Reprobates!

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

And even if they were trying to have kids, why would Gen have purposely dropped the cup?

Because it tasted bad.

:p

He does accept the next cup, I think. He knew he'd have to drink it. He's probably forced himself to drink quite a few cups of that stuff, and hates it, and always fantasizes about smashing them to pieces. So with the slightest excuse he indulges. For a moment.

My favorite theory right now is the building-up-tolerance-of-poison one. You're right that it is probably not a fertility issue. Like I said somewhere above, I have an impatiently aging mother who wants grandkids yesterday, last year preferably, so I guess it was on my mind. I still lean towards it being more than just still recovering from the assassination because it was mentioned so many times. That might have born mentioning once, and not mysteriously. This was multiple mysterious mentions in a book about somebody else, which makes me think it is laying the groundwork for something.

If they could manage to produce an heir there would be slightly less reason to try to assassinate Gen, I think, although I am not really an expert on overthrowing kingdoms. However, I think I would much rather Sophos and Eddis have the child that will take up the title of Annux.

Re: We're All Reprobates!

[mycenaeth.livejournal.com]

I think it's reasonable to assume there's not an infertility issue here. Attolia could be taking contraceptive herbs, or they could be using protection because the court is not a safe place for any children yet. Plus they want to maintain the appearance of a forced marriage.