Discussion Questions

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

I've been re-reading and I have some questions that I hope you wouldn't mind discussing with me! =]

In CoKs
Eddis tells the Magus that Gen's asked to bring Sophos to the training ground. The Magus asks her why Attolis doesn't tell Sounis himself, and then says nevermind he knows why. Did I miss something here? Why couldn't Gen just *tell* Sounis himself?

In CoKs
It seems that Attolis and Eddis are "plotting" both are feeling indefinitely guilty about *something* and this begs to question, was there a way Sophos could have kept his kingdom and prevent war, himself?

In CoKs
At the very end when Gen says "You shot the Ambassador" and Sophos says "you gave me the gun" they both laugh. I don't mean to sound thick but I think I missed the joke...

Comments

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Discussion is always a good thing!

For the first one, I interpreted what the magus said as "Oh, wait, I remember. Gen's being a stupid idiot and refusing to talk to Sophos, so he can't just say what he wants, because that would be too helpful." I don't think there's much beyond that.

For the second one, this is the most confusing part of the book, for me. I think that, under different circumstances, Sophos might have been content to make an alliance with Melenze, or accept his barons' demands and the Mede's advisors. He would have avoided the violence he had to instigate as well as the resulting Mede invasion, and if he'd acted compliant he might even have avoided the assassination he predicted a couple years down the line. But Attolis and Eddis couldn't let him do that. They needed him to rule Sounis, not as a vassal of Melenze, not as a puppet of the Medes, but as Attolis's vassal. To get him to expel the Medes from the country and convince all his barons to follow him, Sophos had to resort to intimidation tactics. He wouldn't have done it normally, but it was Attolis who made him feel like he had no choice, and it was Eddis who picked the numbers of soldiers to send him back with, which were small enough that he couldn't just use military might to win the day. So they feel guilty for forcing him onto the particular path he took. (My view of this is still smoky, so if anyone else can explain it better, I'd like to read it, too!)

As for the third, I think it has something to do with the earlier lines, before the oath-swearing ceremony.

Gen: "You shot the ambassador?"
Sophos: "You gave me the gun."
Gen: "I didn't mean for you to shoot an ambassador with it!"
The magus: "Oh, how our carefully laid plans go astray."
Gen: "You shut up!"

Basically, I think it comes down to the idea that Gen, despite all his cleverness and manipulation, couldn't predict what, exactly, Sophos was going to do with the gun. Even Sophos realizes that it's a really bad idea to shoot an ambassador, so surely Gen couldn't have been expecting him to do that---but he does it anyway, and when Gen says, "Why the heck did you do that?" Sophos just shrugs and says, "Hey, it's partly your fault, you know. You gave me the gun," and they laugh at the irony.

[creative-lefty2.livejournal.com]

Along with the second question, I think the Magus also plays a big part in Sophos' decision. In TT the Magus makes it clear to Gen and Sophos (I can't remember if Ambiades is still hanging around at that point) that having the Medes on their land is BAD. In addition to hero-worshiping Gen, Sophos also greatly admires the Magus, which of course would affect his decisions. So, between the pressure of his well-meaning neighbors and his favorite adviser, he kind of had no choice, despite being king.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

it was Eddis who picked the numbers of soldiers to send him back with, which were small enough that he couldn't just use military might to win the day.

I never really got the implications of that, thanks. Military might wouldn't have solved the problem in the long run, I guess. Just have created the same type of fear Sophos's uncle had going with his people.

Did Sophos have to be Attolis' vassal? Couldn't he have married Eddis and they rule both countries together? Assuming he could have beaten the rebels and convinced his barons, that is. Would that have been enough of a united front--the three countries as allies--to keep the Medes at bay?

Yeah, I'm feeling a little smoky myself.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

I agree, I have a feeling *there was another way*

even if it seems that there is not. Perhaps we'll see more angles to this story in the next book? Mwt does a great job of giving every angle even if it does take a while.
I think if we get more insight on Eddis and Gen's conversations we'll know what's up and why they feel guilty. But more importantly, if Sophos ever finds out, would he choose the other way out?

Or would he just tell Gen that he was being stupid for feeling guilty, that he would trust him no matter what?

The questions..

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

I dont know...if Gen can be a king so can Sophos, maybe he would mind but it would be like an Irene & Gen thing. He could have went the other way, but would it mean losing Helen?

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Well I think Eddis would have to marry Sounis either way, she does have to save her people from the mountain.

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

Thanks for explaining that, it does make sense. Now i can laugh at the joke too, if a bit late :D

And poor Magus and Eddis they're really the in betweens in all of this!!

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I don't see how Sophos could have done it himself, without Gen's help, but I do think that Gen pushed him into war when together they might have avoided that. And that's what Gen feels so guilty about - that he needs to use his friend as a pawn for the (for want of a better term) greater good.

I think you can see that last quote - "You shot the ambassador?" "You gave me the gun" exchange as a demonstration that Sophos couldn't have done it himself, yet Gen needed Sophos to keep the Mede out of their vicinity. (Without Sophos, there probably would have been an internal war, which would have been a great opportunity for the Medes.)

I think part of the funniness of that quote is the wry humor Gen has. I see it as part admiration, part what-were-you-thinking. To which Sophos says, of what else were you thinking when you gave me the gun?

[live-momma.livejournal.com]

And that's what Gen feels so guilty about - that he needs to use his friend as a pawn for the (for want of a better term) greater good.

This, for me, is pretty much the theme of the entire book. What's best for Gen and Attolia and Eddis is not what's best for Sounis, and Gen knows that, and he also knows that Sophos the man trusts Gen the man and since Gen the man likes Sophos the man, it totally sucks that Gen the King has to have very different goals. The compromise Gen and Helen and Irene came up with allowed Sophos to win as much as possible, but he still had to lose some. They regretted that, and none more than Gen.

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

I suppose needing to use Sophos as a pawn and being his friend is what caused him to be so distant for the majority of the book.

While I can't see another way, I just wonder if there is one, and we can't see it because Gen and Eddis dont want Sophos to, and the book is his prespective, pretty much

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Nicely said! Plus:

The compromise Gen and Helen and Irene came up with allowed Sophos to win as much as possible, but he still had to lose some. They regretted that, and none more than Gen.

And not only did they work it so Sophos had to lose some, they had to deceive Sophos to some degree, too. He doesn't know about the volcano, he doesn't know that he won't have enough soldiers to fight off the barons, he doesn't know a whole lot of things, and his friends are manipulating him. Luckily for everyone he's very forgiving.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't understand the supposed other option Sophos could have had. Doesn't it say something about "if he had been more confident, he could have taken back Sounis with just his Father's men?" (extremely paraphrased...)?? That seems unsupported by the rest of the evidence in the book. I just don't get it.

But I'm in the middle of re-reading CoK right now, so maybe I'll get it when I'm done.

[(Anonymous)]

>if he had been more confident, he could have taken back Sounis with just his Father's men?

I think that both Eugenides and Eddis realized that Sophos was potentially capable of retaking Sounis without relying on forces from Attolia and Eddis. The other option isn't explicit at all, that perhaps Sophos could have (through manipulation and brilliant tactics that he lacked the confidence to attempt) with his father's men allowed him to gain control of his country, though it probably would have taken much longer. Gen and Eddis rather reluctantly take advantage of Sophos's situation to save Eddis, as well as unify Eddis, Attolia, and Sounis in what they perceive is the best possible position against the Mede.

What seems to complicate Sophos' decision, along with his personal feelings for Gen and Eddis, is that he knows he can't afford to have Sounis fight against Attolia and deal with a civil war at the same time. He figures ending the war against Attolia is easier because of his friendship with Gen, but it's not as easy as he believes it to be politically. If Sophos had opted to end the internal conflict in Sounis and believed that he had been capable of doing so, he wouldn't have needed to turn to Attolia and Eddis for support.

But Attolia undermines Sophos's confidence and the faith he could have in his own forces and his right to the throne. Sophos doesn't have the confidence to see that option, so he only sees two: either he can be like Eddis (have faith in his supporters, like his father and the Magus, and use persuasion and idealism) or be like Attolia (fight against his barons for the throne, even at the cost of bloodshed). When appealing to the barons peacefully doesn't work, Sophos reluctantly turns to bloodshed like Attolia had to.

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

This is brilliant. it makes sense, thanks a lot

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

I have one answer and one question.

I've been thinking that a big part of why Gen won't ask Sophos to come to the training ground is because he is afraid, terrified he'd say no.

My question I might post again elsewhere because this post is a week old now, but it has to do with the answer to #2. What is more at play for Eugenides and Eddis here: building a united front against the Mede, or giving the people of Eddis somewhere to go before the Sacred Mountain erupts? I've been thinking that part of why Eddis needs to swear oaths to Attolis is because it's been mentioned a few times that, while Sounis is hungry to expand, Attolia is a country left by plague with more land than population. I think Attolia is where the Eddisians will have to go.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

oh, that's nifty you're thinking they needed sophos to pledge and eddis to pledge to Attolis so that the people of Eddis could move to Attolis? I think I remember something in TT when Sophos asks about the extra land that doesn't have enough people to work it...

you should definitely bring this up!

And as for your answer, that is so Gen, he would be terrified that Sophos would be like "No, thanks your Majesty. But I'd rather not!" Oh, poor guy.