Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

Actually, I think I have textual support for some of this somewhere, but we're packing to move again. Support for Gen having been in on Irene's questioning of Costis, though, not for it being a test for Gen's Plans For Costis, since I really don't think Gen knew that early at all what he was actually going to do with him.

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Could you point me in the right direction? I could look it up for you.

*has her books right on her desk and needs a study break*

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What I already have typed into an email indicates there is stuff on 113 and 142. I think the 142 was Costis telling the king he'd told the queen, and the king being like, "It's okay if she guessed and you just confirmed it," but Costis had never told him that that was how it went down at all. And it is much more likely that the king would know that was how it happened if he had asked for it to happen that way than if she'd just told him in passing, "Oh, I interrogated your little guard today."

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(113 and 142 of the the hooky paperback version)

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Okay, on page 113 I think you mean. ...as far as you are aware, he spends the entire time sitting and looking out the window and nothing else? - I always wonder how she knew EXACTLY what he was doing. Could Gen have told her? It would only make sense, she would have asked him in private. If she already knows, she might be testing Costis, or she thought Gen was lying to her and wanted to compare stories.

All Gen says on page 142 is, She is your queen. You can hardly decline to answer her questions. Nothing as specific as you mentioned, but he doesn't sound surprised about it. He probably knew she might ask Costis.

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Hmm,interesting thought...

Though I feel (still do) it was just another scene of Costis's POV on Gen and Irene's relationship. I think Attolia may have been testing Costis, and later might have mentioned it to Gen, who would definitely saw it as progress in his plans to convince Teleus. I don't think they planned things like secret meetings that perfectly early on, to be truthful, KoA have more candid moments of Gen and Irene, while most of CoKs was a conspiracy ;-)
Not to mention it showed us that Costis's allegance was not just to his Queen anymore but to his King as well. Attolia, herself might have seen this as progress for Gen.

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drashizu.livejournal.com

Thanks for looking that up, Lady Jane.

It still isn't convincing to me that Gen was testing Costis, but I do think there has to be some explanation for how Attolia knew that Gen was staring out the window, in order to ask Costis about it in the first place. It could have been news she got from the attendants, who would have had to move the king's chair back after he let them into his room; or Gen could have mentioned it to her, either deliberately or in passing.

Also, what someone said down below,t hat it could be Irene's test for Costis rather than Gen's, is a very interesting idea too.

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(Have the attendants had to put the chair back yet?)

I'm unsure about Irene testing him. She seemed pretty set on "You will not rehabilitate him with me," and a test is a very intellectual thing. Again, woefully lacking in support, I don't think she came around until it was a more emotional thing - "Oh, thank heaves for this crazy young man being redonkulously zealous about protecting my dear reckless idiot of a husband! I am suddenly quite fond of him despite myself. Darn husband, making me fond of another person I've resolved to dismiss... Still, quite fond of him."

But I am determined to get to the bottom of this, once well-armed. There must be clear clues somewhere!

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I really like this bit of analysis. I don't really have any evidence to support my idea yet, and seeing how slow my reading is going, it might take me until July to re-finish the book.

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brandy-painter.livejournal.com

You know that scene has always seemed strange to me too but I never gave it much thought beyond, "Why is she asking Costis? She doesn't really trust him anymore and it's not like her and Gen don't talk." And then I would shrug and move on. Thanks for giving it further thought and forming a theory. There is really no way we can know for sure since there is no evidence in the book other than the scene itself. So anything is speculation.

BUT now that you have brought it up...

It might not be Gen testing him, it might be her. She knows Gen is spending time alone in his room with a guard who was physically violent toward him. Maybe she feels the need to assure herself that what Gen sees in him is actually there.

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Ah, it's not Gen testing him but Irene. Excellent theory!

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Excellent point! I never thought of it like that. I've never reach a full explanation for myself as why Irene felt that Gen's solitary sitting sessions were so important. I don't think Gen would want Costis to hide information from Irene, but he might simply be curious about how Costis will react. AKA: is Costis vindictive enough to willingly give away any information as a revenge tactic, would he keep the secret if not asked, would he tell Gen that he was asked questions, etc. Really, there's many ways to interpret that, but I find this theory intriguing.

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freenarnian.livejournal.com

The book doesn't confirm it one way or another, but it's an interesting idea.

I get the impression this scene has more to do with Costis' relationship with Attolia, which changes over the course of the book. (Is my memory playing tricks on me or does she even smile at him by the end?) On page 305 of the KoA paperback, after Costis has given her his information about Gen, Costis witnesses this conversation between the queen and king:

"Homesick?" she asked.
"Thinking of Sophos."
"I see."

Perhaps Attolia wanted to know if Gen really was just sitting there, homesick... or was he up to something? Did she already know or suspect he had plans for Costis?

I'm not sure. The situation could be interpreted several ways.

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But does Costis even know what his King is doing? I mean, I'm sure he spent some of that time being horribly homesick, but he's sneaky. He could have also quietly slipped out the window some of those times, couldn't he have? Perhaps this is what Irene is wondering, since gossip around the court would probably assume that he is staying in one place and she might want to know if Gen's new pet guard knows anything different.

Also, I'm not saying that there couldn't be collaboration between Gen and Irene (although he was clearly playing a lot of things close to his chest, like his plan for dismantling the house of Erondites), but the Queen asking a member of her guard for information would not really be a good test of his likelihood to gossip or even of his loyalty.

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I was thinking about this too, and I suspect it's more likely that Irene was comparing stories. AKA: she had already talked to Gen, suspected he was lying, and wanted to see what Costis knew. After all, she does ask Costis point-blank if the king was sitting and staring out the window. For all she should have known, he could have been doing handstands or napping. She had probably talked to Gen at some earlier point.

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brandy-painter.livejournal.com

Oh yes, I can also see her using this as a way to check a story Gen had already told her as well. Hmmm...so many possibilities.

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Many possibilities, but that may be the point!

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chubbyleng.livejournal.com

I remember though in QoA, Eddis assures Attolia that when Gen's telling the truth, she'll know. So, if he somehow tells her about his homesickness, wouldn't that mean that he is telling the truth? And that she'll know it's the truth? Isn't it only when he lies that the facts are iffy?

Hmm... so maybe he denied that he was homesick, and she didn't know whether it was true or not, and had to ask someone.

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vaireweaver.livejournal.com

I agree, I always thought this was one of those instances where Gen sneaked away and spent some time with Irene (as on page 23 or the very subtle time together, when she's quite and he's pacing on 127-129). We know their chambers connect, because Costis later knows that the king is in his chamber at night and in his chamber in the morning... and that's all he knows.

Anyway, with the scene in question, page 70 of the paperback, we know that Gen wanted everyone out of his room, he wanted his ring taken off, and that where Costis was standing he couldn't see Gen. "So far as Costis could tell by listening for sounds of shifting weight in the chair, the king didn't move." Really, if you think you know what Gen's doing, you probably don't. Later Costis wonders who could have put the king's seal ring back on. What I wonder is why he took it off and then had it put back on not long after. Could that have been a deliberate test of Costis' cleverness?

So if Gen really did slip off here, Irene's questioning would be a collaboration with Gen. She doesn't actually need information, she wants to find out how much Costis knows or guesses of Gen's comings and goings.

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Really, if you think you know what Gen's doing, you probably don't.

So true! However, at that point, Gen needs to let Costis in, so that the guard will start identifying with him/trusting him/seeing why he should be the loyal puppyguard that he will become. Sooo... I think Gen *is* actually looking out the window, not deceiving Costis. He's giving Costis the evidence and letting him put together his own, more accurate picture of the king.

Later Costis wonders who could have put the king's seal ring back on. What I wonder is why he took it off and then had it put back on not long after. Could that have been a deliberate test of Costis' cleverness?

Well, I have a different interpretation of the scene, but from my pov Gen wants the ring off b/c he's giving himself a break from his kingly role for a few minutes. The ring's probably a seal ring and part of the king's office, equivalent of the ring Irene gives Phresine at one point that bestows the Queen's word. He's unburdening himself of his public role for just a few minutes while he lets himself feel his homesickness. :(

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

I agree with this. I think the fact that Sejanus found his sitting at the window looking at Eddis so important is proof that it was something extremely important to Gen.

And I agree with your second point as well... I'm trying to remember what happened right before that scene that propelled him to frantically want it off, but that's the impression I always got.

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I agree. :)

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"So if Gen really did slip off here, Irene's questioning would be a collaboration with Gen. She doesn't actually need information, she wants to find out how much Costis knows or guesses of Gen's comings and goings."

Unless, of course, Irene doesn't know whether Gen was sitting there or not either.

I like both

hazelwillow and

checkers65477 's ideas about Gen needing to give himself a break from being King and about Irene being (rightfully) worried about Gen.

I'm also wondering, in all the hours of the day that we see Gen being followed around by his entourage of attendants and guards, when does he get the time to eavesdrop on the Baron Erondites conspiring with Sejanus?

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I think he used to slip out an night when the door was locked -- or maybe when they thought he was bathing or something -- before he promised to bring attendants with him everywhere.

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Definitely he slipped out at night, but I doubt Baron Erondites and Sejanus would be discussing things in random rooms of the palace in the middle of the night. That would look really suspicious compared to a quick word during normal waking hours. And I think the Kings attendants would be required to be in close attendance for bathing no matter how much Gen hated the idea.

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Okay, so they're walking down a hallway, and they always go in front to lead him, and next thing you know, poof! He's disappeared behind a tapestry? Or maybe he schedules Private Meetings with fake people and climbs out windows. Or has actual Private Meetings with Ornon, from which he climbs out windows.

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Private meetings with Ornon makes a lot of sense. He found time to meet with Ornon for sword practice, so obviously he gets rid of the attendants sometimes.

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agh-4.livejournal.com

I also agree witht he Ornon idea! But would he (Ornon) willingly act as a cover so Gen could sneak off? It seems like a thing he would scoff at, but maybe he wouldn't stop him? Or maybe Gen sometimes annoys him even more, so he storms off and gives Gen an opportunity to do his sneaking?

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I was dubious, too, which is why I suggested fake meetings with Ornon as well, ones that Ornon did not know he was supposedly attending -- but the queen did mention that Ornon had resorted to extortion with Gen, so maybe it was something like, "I beat you at swordplay, you have to let me out of this room for thirty minutes without alerting the lapdogs," and then later, "Be king or I'll alert the lapdogs!" Or I can see Gen just wandering off in the middle of the meeting and Ornon being all, "Get back here!" and Gen being like, "Or what? You'll run out of the room shouting, Help, your king is climbing out the window?"

I thought about him storming out, but you'd think the guards at the door would notice that.

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I can so see Gen doing this. From the start, Ornon is probably one of the few people Gen has reluctantly trusted, mostly because Ornon is already familiar with many of Gen's stunts.

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agh-4.livejournal.com

Ohh, absolutely. All of those make sense. :)

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I think the difference is that when Gen sneaks away he sends even Costis out of the room - I think the first time is when they think he's gone to gloat over Relius when we know full well he's going to comfort Attolia.

I do, however, agree that I have a hard time seeing why Attolia would call Costis in... I have wondered if it was put in to build up the king-vs-queen tension that most of us ignored, but would be part of the experience for a new-to-the-series reader, like Costis's thoughts about the visitors who might set up a new government with the king.

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Cosits several time mentions this dicotomy. There is the queen, who he is loyal to, and there is the king, who he is loyal to. This does show how he is starting to have loyalty for Gen.

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Ah yes, but what I meant was that this could be used to make it look like the queen was actively machinating behind the king's back, asking for the same reason Baron Whatsihisface did, not because she cared in a wifely way.

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checkers65477.livejournal.com

I prefer my theory--that Attolia was worried as heck about Gen, and every time she would ask him what was wrong he would snap at her, "I'm fine. Stop fussing." She's worried that he's terribly unhappy being married and living there, and she's worried that he's up to some stupid plan that he's not telling her about. She knew Costis wouldn't dare lie to her.

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elle-winters.livejournal.com

I'm going to have to agree, this is what I thought while reading the scene, as well.

She's worried and she has every right to be, it's still early in their relationship. I don't think they are in that place in their relationship where they are in CoKs to be plotting

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drashizu.livejournal.com

Now, this one makes sense to me, too. I can just see Attolia (who definitely isn't normally one for fussing) biting her tongue to try not to sound like that's what she doing, until finally she just can't help it and asks him, only to have him slither out of answering, like the slitherer-outer we all know he is.

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I like this idea, too.

That's the thing about this, though. All the answers are possible since we only get to see Costis' point of view.

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I agree.

And about how she could have known to guess exactly what Gen was doing, i.e. looking out the window --I think she must have known why he chose that room: because it's reminiscent of his old room, as Sophos notes in CoK, and because it has a window facing towards Eddis. She's insightful and she knows he's spending time alone in there and she's worried sick about how homesick he might be but he won't tell her --looking out the window would be a reasonable guess. Also Costis figures it out himself and that baron he accidentally tells about it can glean from it too.

I think Gen's actually letting Costis in on a very private moment, something he doesn't tell the queen about. He probably doesn't want to make her feel bad.

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checkers65477.livejournal.com

Plus, there's a secret passageway or something from Gen's bedroom, right? That's how he visits the queen's chambers. Irene is probably worried that he's going to his room and then sneaking out and skulking around the palace. Maybe she's relieved to find he's only homesick and staring out the window.

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Yep, this is always how I read it.

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I like everyone's ideas here!

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It's an interesting idea that they're testing Costis. I can't help but think that if it's a test, though, he failed. Right?

I mean, he didn't go leaping over himself to betray the king's trust, so I guess he passed re: intentions. But he betrayed the king's trust anyway, accidentally.

I dunno, I tend to think Irene's just worried about Gen and is insightful about what he might do. I do think the royal couple are watching Costis to see how loyal he is, though.

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Well it's absolutely unfair to have a test of loyalty to one of his sovereigns over another. He's sworn an oath to both of them. If the King and Queen aren't united and the loyalty of their subjects has to be split, everybody loses.

But, yes. I expect the royal couple are watching Costis to see how loyal he is. As far as Attola is concerned, he's got one strike against him already. And as far as Attolis is concerned, well . . . the whole point of goading Costis into striking him is related to that.

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

He did always feel pulled between them, though, didn't he? And in both cases I can think of, he chose Attolia... He left off guarding the king's bedroom when Phresine came with the ring, and he told Attolia what Gen was doing when Attolia asked.

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