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Apr. 21st, 2011 08:11 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
missmoonbeam.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
queensthiefhi everyone. i've been lurking for a while and am finally posting. actually, have been meaning to post earlier but was too caught up reading old posts and fanfics (great job there, by the way, i loved so many). i was so lonely being the only person i know who LOVES the series and then i found this site where loads of people pick apart every line looking for a hidden meaning. you guys are great! i've had most of my questions answered, but i still have a few left. so i'm going to start with QoA, and post the questions for the other books in separate posts.
and in case anyone wants to know, i'm 26 and a full-time mommy of two beautiful little girls aged 2 and 4. the only downside to that is it doesn't leave me a lot of time for reading.
ok, questions (sorry, these contain spoilers, but i dont know how to do that hide behind link thingy):
1. when attolia visits gen in the prison after his hand is cut off, she sees "only fever and pain and an emotion she couldn't put a name to". i'm probably the slowest person on here, but please tell me what that emotion is? is it love and she can't put a name to it because it's so foreign to her?
2. later, when eddis and gen have picked up the magus, why is gen cross?
3. why does attolia throw a tantrum when she hears there might be something going on between gen and eddis?
looking forward to great discussions! sorry if these have already been discussed before, but i haven't found them and i've read most stuff with the tags QoA, KoA, and aCoK.
and in case anyone wants to know, i'm 26 and a full-time mommy of two beautiful little girls aged 2 and 4. the only downside to that is it doesn't leave me a lot of time for reading.
ok, questions (sorry, these contain spoilers, but i dont know how to do that hide behind link thingy):
1. when attolia visits gen in the prison after his hand is cut off, she sees "only fever and pain and an emotion she couldn't put a name to". i'm probably the slowest person on here, but please tell me what that emotion is? is it love and she can't put a name to it because it's so foreign to her?
2. later, when eddis and gen have picked up the magus, why is gen cross?
3. why does attolia throw a tantrum when she hears there might be something going on between gen and eddis?
looking forward to great discussions! sorry if these have already been discussed before, but i haven't found them and i've read most stuff with the tags QoA, KoA, and aCoK.
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Date: 4/21/11 03:33 pm (UTC)Those are great questions that I at any rate like revisiting. I feel like certain questions I have to go through and come back to a couple of times before I feel like I've really hit on the right answer. However, I am book-less right now, which doesn't help.
1. I really think this emotion is adoration/love, yes. Other ideas have been put forward. Forgiveness was a good one. Betrayal or something like that was interesting, but didn't seem right to me. I think, for the book, it makes sense to be able to go back to this scene and see that it was there, all along, even then, but, yes, so foreign to her she couldn't see.
2. At first I thought he wasn't down with the "message" they were sending Attolia, but he tweaks her with jealous later, so probably not. And of course he's a bit grumpy from the horse-riding in public. But I think the big thing here is the whole Eddis-alone-with-the-magus thing with the guards, when she's not alone with him, Gen's there. It makes Gen feel like crap, the attitude that he's not enough to protect his queen.
I can't recall whether it makes sense to think at this point that he's already back in his habit of "portraying himself as a non-combatant" as I think Eddis later puts it, and chafing against his own decision not to show what he can do with that hook. I suspect yes because I recall him not being touchy when the magus asks about the hook/hand, but I'm not sure.
3. I keep forgetting the reason here. I know at one point I thought it was because she was putting things together and realizing that Gen had indeed kidnapped the Magus and framed Attolia for it and was just as much a threat to her as he'd ever been.
I look forward to more questions from you!
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Date: 4/21/11 03:46 pm (UTC)i didnt come across the idea that it might have been forgiveness, though. i think that makes a lot of sense. along with love and heartbreak.
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Date: 4/22/11 02:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/21/11 06:52 pm (UTC)I know what your saying about having less time to read. I do most of my reading once my kids (almost 7 and almost 3) go to bed. I sacrifice sleep for it.
1. I always thought it was his love for her, probably tinged with a great deal of despair. Because she had done it, because he was there to cause it, because it would always be there between them. Since she is not used to seeing that sort of despair and sadness from her prisoners it confused her.
2. I always thought that Gen had a problem with pretending to have an affair going on with his queen. He does use the serving girl to prove Irene's jealousy later, but he never does use Helen as a means to provoke it. I don't think he liked the potential problems that particular belief about him would cause in the future. Plus, I really believe Gen would have considered such a thing beneath him, especially others finding out about it if it were true.
3. This I've thought about lots. Temper tantrums are usually caused by an overwhelming of emotion that we don't know what to do with. At this point she had been under a lot of stress for a very long time and was really sharing her concerns and plans with no one (including Relius). Plus, Gen had always represented to her everything that Eddis had that she didn't: loyal servants who would do anything for her simply because they loved her. I think discovering that Eddis might be reaping the benefits of a close, intimate , personal relationship with him on top of that was rubbing salt in a very old wound (clearly Attolia couldn't have that with anyone either). And the fact that it was Gen who she had been obsessing and losing sleep over (even though she didn't understand why) just made it more than she could take in that moment.
I've also always wondered if this incident was reported back in Eddis and how Eddis might have reacted to it after having Gen tell her that Attolia never rages, no matter her emotion she just sits.
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Date: 4/22/11 12:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/22/11 06:08 pm (UTC)The belief that they are having an affair puts an entirely different perspective on their relationship. Everyone in the Court now will wonder at the decisions she makes and exactly what kind of influence that sort of relationship has on how she listens to him. Just the belief that they are involved with each other that way could change the entire dynamic of the court.
I agree with those below who have said he is also annoyed at the guards thinking him inadequate protection, but I think that is only a little bit responsible for his bad mood.
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Date: 4/22/11 06:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/22/11 07:55 pm (UTC)I also don't think the members of Eddis's court ever thought her and Gen would marry. Which is why I say they were surprised temporarily, because I've never really thought the Eddisians believed this for very long. Most of them probably knew they were spreading a disinformation campaign from the beginning. So, I don't think that it actually did affect the politics of the Court (at least not for long), but I think Gen's annoyance over the situation in the beginning is because he doesn't like how it reflects on him...or her, for that matter. And while those in the know would realize the rumor was false, the rest of the country did not. Probably part of the reason the common people of Eddis aren't too fond of Gen anymore (as is implied in ACoK). You have an affair with one Queen and then marry another, it doesn't cast you in the best light. There are implications a situation like this makes about the people involved that would be hard to do away with later. I think this makes more sense in my head than it does when I type it...
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Date: 4/22/11 11:20 pm (UTC)Correct me if I'm wrong, I have little knowledge of history, but it always seems to me as if there's a double standard when it comes to women and men back then. Like men could do whatever in the world they want, but women must obviously keep their virtue until properly married off. I understand that Eddis is Queen, and perhaps that gives her a bit more freedom than most women, but wouldn't having an affair with a man she's not married to be considered scandalous? Or shameful? I mean, of course, it would be surprising to say the least, but it always makes me wonder why Eddis was so comfortable in breeding a rumour of that degree.
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Date: 4/23/11 12:02 am (UTC)No, you're right about the double standard, which is why I put in that part about him not liking it reflecting poorly on her too. That part about the reaction of the people of Eddis just occurred to me as I was typing that and I didn't give it much thought beyond, "I wonder"...so maybe not. I do think at the point when they're with the Magus all that could potentially go wrong with this current rumor plan is what is weighing on Gen's mind. All that is part of the potential, but it might not have gotten that far.
As far as the scandal: it would be scandalous for her to be having an affair. Particularly with someone she started a war over who it's obvious she is trying to marry off to her cousin. This is why I think it probably did cause shock and furor in the court at first. The wiser people,who knew it couldn't be true and that they were obviously shamming for some reason, probably helped fan the flames at first. I'm fairly certain most of the others (the not so wise) figured out it was untrue at some point but once a rumor like that is out there you can't pull it back in completely. It's possible if the common people did find out they would see the Queen as an injured party, like Gen used her in some way.
Working out the logistics of how this may have worked is giving me a headache and I've now officially spent more time thinking about this than is probably normal or healthy.
I do think that all of the potential ramifications of such a rumor bothered Gen and that's why he was in a bad mood. The soldiers not trusting him added fuel to the flame because it was a reminder that his charades always come with consequences he doesn't particularly enjoy.
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Date: 4/21/11 09:52 pm (UTC)(1) I've always felt it was a mix of emotions: love, forgiveness, understanding, sadness for what she has become. What's she's had to become. She's not used to these in general, but certainly not from prisoners she's about to hack limbs off of. It's that same look that causes her to smack him in the courtroom earlier on in the book.
Maybe it's a short fic I'm writing or the romantic in me, but I think Gen still sees her as that innocent, lonely little girl he saw dancing under those orange trees so long ago. He still sees the innocent side of her she's tried so hard to bury, and he looks at her like that's still a part of who she is (which it is). He pieties her, which she hates.
(2) I agree with the above. Couldn't have said it better.
(3) Well, because she's jeeaallous. :D Another very complex scene there. Not only is she enraged about being tricked, she deeply jealous of Helen and all the support she has. I mean, think about... You've been jealous of this girl your whole life that seems to have everything that you've ever wanted, and all of a sudden, you find out her most loyal servant, who would die for her, is also her lover (male consort?). Irene thinks she only jealous of the fact that Helen can indulge herself like that while still remaining safe and sound upon her throne. Truth is, she's also jealous that Gen has such great affection for Helen, while she believes that he hates her. If you're Irene in this scene, it's an all around ouch factor.
Hope that helps. Feel free to visit more past discussions if you have more questions. We don't mind at all. And thank you for the compliment about the fan-fiction (some of its mine). I'm sure all the authors are thrilled that you enjoyed reading them.
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Date: 4/22/11 01:12 pm (UTC)yup, most of the fics were great, i especially loved the au stories, i wish there were more. i should have left comments but i read them from my husband's cell phone and it's really hard to type there. its touch screen and i keep touching the back button by mistake and losing everything.
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Date: 4/22/11 08:09 pm (UTC)There actually more fics you may not have read on FF.net (http://www.fanfiction.net/book/Queens_Thief_series/) and AO3 (http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Queen's%20Thief%20-%20Megan%20Whalen%20Turner/works). Not everything gets posted to livejournal. We're just glad you enjoyed them. :)
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Date: 4/23/11 05:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/23/11 07:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/21/11 11:03 pm (UTC)here: http://sounis.livejournal.com/55198.html and
here: http://sounis.livejournal.com/61433.html
...which I have on an index card slotted in my book along with a lot of other quotes from Sounis. :) She wrote: "In my opinion, it is love, but it goes with a sort of horror, because he realizes when he sees her there that he does still love her, and that he always will, not matter what she does to him, and this is terrifying."
Other suggestions are: despair, heartbreak, betrayal, fear?
Personally, I settle with heartbreak, because to me that encompasses Philia's sentiment above: love, but also horror/sadness. I don't imagine she's used to her prisoners looking at her as though she's broken their hearts. Also earlier "he begged as though his heart was breaking..." :(
3. She's jealous!
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Date: 4/22/11 12:28 am (UTC)WELCOME WELCOME WELCOME!!
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Date: 4/23/11 06:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/22/11 01:14 pm (UTC)his begging broke my heart too!
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Date: 4/23/11 06:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/23/11 12:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/23/11 06:22 am (UTC):P
Yeah.. a while ago! Before my time, but I spend too much time trawling through archives *cough*IneedmySounisfix*cough*
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Date: 4/22/11 01:37 am (UTC)2. After recently rereading CoK, it seems like maybe Gen was feeling the same way he was after he sparred with Melheret and had to pretend to be bested by the Medean. He knows he could easily protect Eddis from the Magus, but no one else does. He hates that.
3. I agree with what others said and would only add that she is also scared. If Gen is back in business, she knows it's only a matter of time before he comes for her.
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Date: 4/22/11 01:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/22/11 05:31 pm (UTC)Gen hates the Mede, he didn't hate his attendents, they never gave him a chance and that worked in his favor.
But he hates Narhuserfish (and Melhert was trained by him) enough that he hates playing a game with him, he'd rather outright beat him. Send a message to beware. But he's smarter than that, so he'll play the game, but he wont be happy about it.
Same with guarding Eddis, but they're not playing any games that's outright saying he's not what he used to be and so naturally he's more upsest. It's like not letting him go on the roof.
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Date: 4/22/11 07:55 pm (UTC)He does all that playacting because it fits in with his plans, but still hates the embarrassment of being thought inept.
I do love the part in ACoK where Gen throws his practice sword, picks it up and throws it harder, then takes Sophos's sword and pitches it, too. ♥
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Date: 4/22/11 08:15 pm (UTC)Then Teleus gives him a look that basically says, kings should not throw practice swords. *pointedly hands Gen sword* I love these guys.
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Date: 4/22/11 10:48 pm (UTC)Oh! And Sophos's take on Teleus, and how he seemed to be displeased by something, possibly the sun in the sky. Perfect Teleus!
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Date: 4/23/11 01:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/23/11 02:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 4/22/11 01:54 am (UTC)3. I always felt like that was a tip off that she might like him for more than just what he was. Not to mention she was always jealous of Eddis, and she had been told that Gen and Eddis were fighting and been assured that they've had no contact and that Gen hasn't been plotting against her. And here they were really having a secret affair. She feels like she's been played, obviously she's upset.
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Date: 4/22/11 02:06 am (UTC)3. She was told by her spies that Gen had spoken to no one and was in a disagreement with Eddis, only to find out that they've been having an affair. Obviously she's enraged. Not to mention that means Gen's been plotting, and that is a huge worry for her.
And I think it's an indication of her personal feelings towards Gen are more than what she wants them to be.
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Date: 4/23/11 05:15 am (UTC)Welcome! :)