musings/stirring up discussion about relius & gen/mostly musings

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

 do i hallucinate, or am i the only one who's weird enough (and obsessed with literary symbolism enough) to see parallels between koa relius and qoa gen?

• they're both betrayed by someone/something (attolia/gods) they trusted/served
• they both end up injuring a hand in jail (well. gen's gets more than injured, but there's the symbolism!)
• they both maintain that what attolia did was just/fair, or at least that they could see her point of view
• attolia admits to loving both of them
• they both go into it ("it," i suppose, being the experience of being jailed & tortured by attolia) loving irene (i guess it's subjective when it comes to relius, but he is, at least, very devoted to her) & despite having been tortured, and in gen's case, maimed, by her, they still keep their love for her ("even if she kept me here for fifty years, i would grovel to serve at her feet" or smt and "calf love doesn't usually survive amputation, your majesty")

i think there was more that i wanted to point out, but i've forgotten it all (lj ate up my post, and it's been two days since i thought this up, so).

but yeah, do you guys think that part of the reason gen put so much effort into "saving" relius (figuratively and metaphorically) was because he could see the similarities between the two circumstances, and he didn't want relius to end up like him? (saying that he (gen) would set relius free even if he didn't choose to go back to being secretary of the archives, offering him a house in the gede valley, letting him have the happy ending that gen thought would come at the end of qoa (something about fireside stories? he was talking to helen, i don't remember the exact page or wording) because he had been more or less forced (well, coerced? it was his "destiny," at any rate, and he couldn't escape it, because even if the gods didn't outright make him do anything, he knew him well enough that it was moot) into the position of king).)

and maybe gen visits relius at night when relius wakes, terrified, because gen can relate, because he did the same after his incarceration, and he didn't want anyone to go through that alone?

thoughts? agree/disagree?

Comments

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[(Anonymous)]

Complex Post. This post helped me in my college assignment. Thnaks Alot

[keestone.livejournal.com]

Short version: I agree

. . . although I don't know that Gen realizes exactly how similar they can be, I think he was definitely visiting Relius at night because he saw similarities in their situations. One more point, they're both having to learn that they don't have to be independent to the point of isolation.

And I think Relius realized he was totally and hopelessly in love with his Queen way before Gen figured out what his feelings were. :)

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I think you are right on in your comparison. There are a great deal of similarities. And yes I think Gen was giving Relius a choice that he felt he didn't have by offering the house and retirement.

I will say I see their love for the Queen as being very different. Relius loves Attolia, while Gen loves Irene is a simple way to state it but doesn't exactly express what I see as the difference. Attolia and Relius have a very strange relationship. Attolia was partly Relius's creation but she surpassed his teaching. At the same time Relius is partly Atollia's creation and he kind of worships her as a result. He is cautious of her in a way that shows he truly doesn't understand her, but he would do anything she asked. He is very subservient to her and doesn't challenge her. The last time I read QoA I was really struck by how little even he seemed to know of her plans and how cautious he was when discussing Nahuseresh. Gen on the other hand...

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Agree! I can't say any more than that at the moment because I feel like my brain is dead for some reason this week, but this is a very interesting comparison between the two of them. I hadn't ever really thought of it that way, but they do have a lot in common! But I think the way they approach the similarities in their situations is very different, as well. Their personalities almost seem like polar opposites to me.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I agree with brandy_painter - I never thought Relius loved Irene. I always came away with the impression that he loved wielding power and that he loved the country. I think that's why he stayed on after being so badly hurt by Attolia and offered an escape route by Gen.

And I think Gen himself saw some parallels, which is why he tried to visit at that time of night he knew nightmares came (what did he call it - the dog watch?).

So basically: yes.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree.

No, you're not crazy.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how far into the parallels Gen himself was looking, but if they are hallucination, then they are mass hallucination.

[(Anonymous)]

I probably need to reread, but I thought Gen, one way or another, caused Relius' hand to be crushed? Sort of as pay-back for Relius' torture/interrogation behind Attolia's back right after she cut off his hand? No? So that these parallels are not coincidental, but rather intentional on Gen's part? Well, except for the betrayal.

[(Anonymous)]

Wait...Attolia had him beaten, didn't she... Ugh, I'm disgusted with my patchy memory of QT. But either way, I remember thinking that Gen got his retribution for having been tortured by Relius. Basically, I totally agree with your thoughts, but I think that it's not really that Gen "saw the similarities between the two circumstances"--for some reason, this sounds like a gradual realization. He's in more control than that. It's more like Gen immediately saw that their circumstances were practically exactly the same.

[etv13.livejournal.com]

Does anybody else find it troubling, though, that all the characters in these books seem to take both the efficacy and the morality of torture for granted? They take the morality of slavery pretty much for granted, too. These are historically accurate attitudes (to the extent that the culture approximates late-medieval/early modern Mediterranean culture), but I'm wondering how uncritically we ought to buy in to those attitudes.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

I'm so late to this discussion but Relius is my favorite character and I have always planned to come back to this when I got LiveJournal sorted again so... here I am...very late. :) Anyway...

My short answer is also that I agree with what you've said. I always felt that Gen saw their situations as virtually identical and all of his actions (to Relius and Attolia) stem from that.

And I agree with brandy-painter's description of Relius' relationship with Attolia. I do think he's in love with her but not the kind of "in love" that results in marriage or a similar type of relationship.

Relius is my favorite character in the series and I love when discussions about him come up. I hope his part in the series is not over.