musings/stirring up discussion about relius & gen/mostly musings

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

 do i hallucinate, or am i the only one who's weird enough (and obsessed with literary symbolism enough) to see parallels between koa relius and qoa gen?

• they're both betrayed by someone/something (attolia/gods) they trusted/served
• they both end up injuring a hand in jail (well. gen's gets more than injured, but there's the symbolism!)
• they both maintain that what attolia did was just/fair, or at least that they could see her point of view
• attolia admits to loving both of them
• they both go into it ("it," i suppose, being the experience of being jailed & tortured by attolia) loving irene (i guess it's subjective when it comes to relius, but he is, at least, very devoted to her) & despite having been tortured, and in gen's case, maimed, by her, they still keep their love for her ("even if she kept me here for fifty years, i would grovel to serve at her feet" or smt and "calf love doesn't usually survive amputation, your majesty")

i think there was more that i wanted to point out, but i've forgotten it all (lj ate up my post, and it's been two days since i thought this up, so).

but yeah, do you guys think that part of the reason gen put so much effort into "saving" relius (figuratively and metaphorically) was because he could see the similarities between the two circumstances, and he didn't want relius to end up like him? (saying that he (gen) would set relius free even if he didn't choose to go back to being secretary of the archives, offering him a house in the gede valley, letting him have the happy ending that gen thought would come at the end of qoa (something about fireside stories? he was talking to helen, i don't remember the exact page or wording) because he had been more or less forced (well, coerced? it was his "destiny," at any rate, and he couldn't escape it, because even if the gods didn't outright make him do anything, he knew him well enough that it was moot) into the position of king).)

and maybe gen visits relius at night when relius wakes, terrified, because gen can relate, because he did the same after his incarceration, and he didn't want anyone to go through that alone?

thoughts? agree/disagree?

Comments

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[(Anonymous)]

Complex Post. This post helped me in my college assignment. Thnaks Alot

[keestone.livejournal.com]

Short version: I agree

. . . although I don't know that Gen realizes exactly how similar they can be, I think he was definitely visiting Relius at night because he saw similarities in their situations. One more point, they're both having to learn that they don't have to be independent to the point of isolation.

And I think Relius realized he was totally and hopelessly in love with his Queen way before Gen figured out what his feelings were. :)

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

mmm, totally true about the isolation.
& i thought i was imagining things with relius/attolia (actually, i probably still am). there's just something very appealing about them.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I think it's totally and hopelessly unrequited on a romantic level (and there were far too many pedestals and other social barriers involved for it to be anything close to otherwise), but there's a complex and deep relationship there. :)

Interestingly, I don't think it would be much of an exaggeration to say that metaphorically, before his fall Relius was Attolia's right hand, and she lost that through betrayal as well.

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

mmm, agree on the first point (i do think attolia has a lot of affection for relius, but it's more on a friendly level).
& wow on the second point.
i never thought of that! :)

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

*insofar as much as she can afford to be friendly

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I think you are right on in your comparison. There are a great deal of similarities. And yes I think Gen was giving Relius a choice that he felt he didn't have by offering the house and retirement.

I will say I see their love for the Queen as being very different. Relius loves Attolia, while Gen loves Irene is a simple way to state it but doesn't exactly express what I see as the difference. Attolia and Relius have a very strange relationship. Attolia was partly Relius's creation but she surpassed his teaching. At the same time Relius is partly Atollia's creation and he kind of worships her as a result. He is cautious of her in a way that shows he truly doesn't understand her, but he would do anything she asked. He is very subservient to her and doesn't challenge her. The last time I read QoA I was really struck by how little even he seemed to know of her plans and how cautious he was when discussing Nahuseresh. Gen on the other hand...

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

^ THIS

Oh, and I have a feeling that Relius had been tortured in Attolia's hands before KoA. After all, she did find him snooping around when they first met; hard to believe she'd accept his story readily, if he wasn't under some kind of pain.

I'll comment more on this later... gotta look for my brain.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I don't know about the previous torture thing. It is mentioned several times in the books that Relius was the one that taught Attolia all that. It was his philosophy ingrained in her that pain was the only path to truth. It is even referenced when she is questioning him after they discover his guilt. I have always wondered if that was maybe why Gen left Relius in the dungeons as long as he did. If he maybe blamed Relius for what the philosophy (which is not that solid) did to Irene and caused her to do to him. You could be right though, this is one of those thing it is impossible to know for certain.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Do we know exactly when they first met?

I seem to remember that within her first year reign, she had her tax collector's tongue and hand chopped off after finding out he was funding a revolt out of her own treasury. I'm not sure if Relius was here already.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Ah... he might or might not be. In KoA Attolia said she found Relius during her first year as queen.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

But Gen did have that choice . . . it was the one Eddis had originally thought to plan for him. :) (And I suspect Gen had an inkling that when it came down to it, Relius would be as likely to choose that option as he himself had been.)

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

You are right! I was actually thinking about this tonight while I was at the gym (nothing better to think about)but also it had been bothering me that I said that because I always felt that Gen did have choice. And he did. Yes, it is exactly the option Eddis gave Gen and in giving Relius the same choice he made it possible for Relius to understand him better. I was going to come and correct myself but I am glad you beat me to it. :-)

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

on the other hand, though, i think relius could have taken that choice & would have been happy in taking it (talking about how he wanted to open correspondence with the magus of sounis, about the sheep &c), whereas gen would not have been, because of irene, but also because he has a sense of ~responsibility when it comes to the war, because it was partly because of him that it started.
i don't know how to explain it. i feel like, yes, he could have chosen, but it wasn't really a choice, if you know what i mean?
like, it wouldn't have offered the solace it would have relius because he would have been beating himself up &c.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't think Relius would have been happy in taking that choice, but he'd convinced himself that was the best he could have after his failure made him useless. Maybe a bit like studying on the Peninsula.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

This is a fantastic parallel. Really, I just heard a "click" as the pieces fit together in my head :D

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Agree! I can't say any more than that at the moment because I feel like my brain is dead for some reason this week, but this is a very interesting comparison between the two of them. I hadn't ever really thought of it that way, but they do have a lot in common! But I think the way they approach the similarities in their situations is very different, as well. Their personalities almost seem like polar opposites to me.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I agree with brandy_painter - I never thought Relius loved Irene. I always came away with the impression that he loved wielding power and that he loved the country. I think that's why he stayed on after being so badly hurt by Attolia and offered an escape route by Gen.

And I think Gen himself saw some parallels, which is why he tried to visit at that time of night he knew nightmares came (what did he call it - the dog watch?).

So basically: yes.

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

i might be biased (i love the idea of relius/irene even if i melt into a puddle of goo at the merest whisper of gen/irene), but i really do think he loves her.

i mean, if he loved wielding power so much, i really don't think he would have considered so seriously retiring into the country & opening correspondence with the magus (ugh i wished that would have happened. i can totally see them becoming bffl's, haha). the only thing that kept him at court was irene (i don't have the book with me right now, but he says something like "even if she kept me here for fifty years, i would grovel at the chance to serve her again") & i don't really feel that that's the attitude of a man who wants power.

he seems content to be subservient, or at least subservient to irene.
feel free to disagree, i just felt like putting in my two cents. :)

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree.

No, you're not crazy.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how far into the parallels Gen himself was looking, but if they are hallucination, then they are mass hallucination.

[(Anonymous)]

I probably need to reread, but I thought Gen, one way or another, caused Relius' hand to be crushed? Sort of as pay-back for Relius' torture/interrogation behind Attolia's back right after she cut off his hand? No? So that these parallels are not coincidental, but rather intentional on Gen's part? Well, except for the betrayal.

[(Anonymous)]

No, I'm pretty sure Relius was tortured by the Queen's order, and that's what injured his hand.

[(Anonymous)]

Wait...Attolia had him beaten, didn't she... Ugh, I'm disgusted with my patchy memory of QT. But either way, I remember thinking that Gen got his retribution for having been tortured by Relius. Basically, I totally agree with your thoughts, but I think that it's not really that Gen "saw the similarities between the two circumstances"--for some reason, this sounds like a gradual realization. He's in more control than that. It's more like Gen immediately saw that their circumstances were practically exactly the same.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Relius's mangled hand is Gen's revenge. I don't think he'd put anyone through that exact punishment, even Nahuseresh (maybe). Gen isn't present for Relius's torturing, and he doesn't order it -- it's just something everyone knows will happen, since there's been a betrayal. Also, he seems to have more pity (maybe not pity? mercy?) and empathy for Relius than a desire for revenge, maybe becaus he knows what it's like. I definitely agree that Gen sees the similarities in their circumstances (that all you guys have wonderfully talked about), but he also knows that Relius doesn't.

It seems like Relius believes that this is basically the end of his life, his inevitable downfall, that it's acceptable for Attolia to punish him and Gen to rub it in. There's definitely a role reversal between the two guys, but Gen wants to show Relius that the reversal also means that he UNDERSTANDS Relius inside and out and can't put him through any more suffering. So he gives him a new chance and visits him when he's alone at night. After the first few visits, after Relius starts to see the real king, it must be a relief for Gen to be around someone who doesn't hate him anymore, or take him for a total idiot.

But also -- I forget if anyone's mentioned this -- Gen's "mercy" to both Relius and Teleus is for Attolia's sake. I think there's a quote about that... :)

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Agree!

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

maybe i'm desensitized to unhealthy (but still rather sweet) relationships because of my constant near-obsessive rereading of qt

but i totally read your last comment and immediately thought "awwwwwwww how cute!"

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yeah, me too! Unhealthy relationships are so lovable when we can read about characters like these... :D

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

And it's especially amazing that Gen showed that kindness and mercy to Relius, considering that when Relius came to Gen's cell he tortured Gen. Yikes.

I thought Gen's behavior toward Relius was the kindest thing we ever saw him do.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

Excellent point on his kindness and because I 100% agree that Gen sees Relius as experiencing what he himself experienced it's also a kindness to himself. Gen is self-serving and even selfish but I don't often think of him as being kind to himself. This is a way of doing it.

[etv13.livejournal.com]

Does anybody else find it troubling, though, that all the characters in these books seem to take both the efficacy and the morality of torture for granted? They take the morality of slavery pretty much for granted, too. These are historically accurate attitudes (to the extent that the culture approximates late-medieval/early modern Mediterranean culture), but I'm wondering how uncritically we ought to buy in to those attitudes.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

I'm so late to this discussion but Relius is my favorite character and I have always planned to come back to this when I got LiveJournal sorted again so... here I am...very late. :) Anyway...

My short answer is also that I agree with what you've said. I always felt that Gen saw their situations as virtually identical and all of his actions (to Relius and Attolia) stem from that.

And I agree with brandy-painter's description of Relius' relationship with Attolia. I do think he's in love with her but not the kind of "in love" that results in marriage or a similar type of relationship.

Relius is my favorite character in the series and I love when discussions about him come up. I hope his part in the series is not over.