Obvious in retrospect.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I hope I'm not the only one ready for another round of obsessive, in-depth, delight-and-amuse-Megan-by-finding-what-isn't-(or-is-it?)-there book discussion!

Because I just finished a 2nd reading of A Conspiracy of Kings.



I'll skip the mile long squee fest that naturally follows the reading of MWT's books and get right to a couple questions. (I'm sure they've been discussed here before, so I'm looking forward to your quick and clever answers.)

1) Sounis swears his loyalty to Attolis, not Attolia. I'm sure I knew this the 1st time, but it wasn't until my 2nd time reading that it fully registered, followed by an immediate, "Why?" I'm further puzzled by the fact that, unlike so many details of the Sounis/Eddis/Attolia negotiations, it goes by without so much as a blink, a discussion, an explanation... like the characters assume from the first that that's how it'll be. No doubt the reason is obvious to everyone but me. My first and only thought is that it must have something to do with safeguarding Gen's kingship. Perhaps even an evil baron would think twice about assassinating Gen if it means the loss of a vital alliance with Sounis (against the Mede). Could it also have something to do with winning over the Eddisian people? Would they be much more comfortable settling in Sounis knowing it was loyal to Gen, one of their own, versus the Attolian queen? Yes? No? Thoughts?

2) I also found myself wondering where in the existing timeline A Conspiracy of Kings takes place. For some reason I thought it overlapped with KoA, and maybe it does in the beginning, but then it seemed like it came after. It's those pesky Mede quadruplets messing with my head...

Comments

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

1) Because everyone *knows* Attolia is a monster, of course! I don't mean to imply that you missed the obvious, I mean that I think that that is the natural conclusion every average Sounisian and Eddisian comes too. She poison's her husbands and hangs people by their thumbs. They probably use her to scare their children into exemplary behavior! I think the thought of Attolia makes the other Penninsular-ians (If that's a word!) nervous. So they went with her husband, who has a *little* less frightening reputation. Just my opinion ;)

2) I think the beginning overlaps KoA - but I got the impression that Sophos was a slave for some time, so he was still a slave after the events of KoA, and then made his way to Attolia. Again, Just my opinion!

Thanks for the excuse to dissect!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Gen is just the better diplomat. (Scary thought.)

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

1.) I think becuase it cements Gen on his throne, and becuase he was the one who controlled the negotiations (the first thing is to admit that you've lost - sorry for the bad paraphrase) ALSO, because it would give Gen something to do instead of constantly pestering his wife, or sitting in his room feeling homesick!! :) (hey, it's a theory !! :)

2.) KoA discusses the fact that Sophos is missing, so some part of the earlier parts of a CoK must overlap with that part of KoA, and then the rest takes place after KoA (though of course, there is the mysterious other half of KoA floating around out there that maybe we will see soon ....) It always upset me though that Gen seems to have gone backward with his attendants, (or it could just be Gen over exagerating the situation as usual)

I hope that made sense ....

[zephyranthia.livejournal.com]

Other half of KoA? What is this?

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

I don't think Gen went backward with his attendants. After the whole Sejanus deal, Gen gained control of his attendants, but he didn't forge a friendly relationship with them. It's not that Gen went backward with his attendants, it's that Gen didn't go FORWARD with them. They're just stuck in this stalemate, because Gen thinks them to inferior to think better of them, even though they want to rise in his opinion (at least, that's the impression I got from ACoK).That's why it's important when Sophos comes and meets Ion--he teaches Gen to re-evaluate his opinions. Let's see if I can find the scene...Alrighty, this is right after Sophos asks Gen's attendant Ion to serve him. page 201 (I only put dialogue, because I'm lazy):

Gen: What are you doing rescuing my attendants from their own folly?

Sophos: Did you let him go?

Gen: I'm still thinking about it, shocked as I am to find you raiding my overelegant lapdogs for your own companions

Sophos: I astonished myself. I might perhaps have been prejudiced in my earlier judgment of them.

Gen: I will rethink my own judgments then

I know we don't find out what happens between Gen and his attendants, but I think if we were reading it from Gen's perspective, then we'd see a turning point in their relationship after this conversation.

On another note, I really liked this scene in the book, because it sort of shows Sophos teaching Gen a lesson, albeit unwittingly. Obviously, I love Gen, but sometimes I feel...that he's too perfect sometimes? Especially in this book, where it's basically Sophos thinking "What would Gen do?" the whole time. In this scene, however, Gen has something to learn from Sophos, instead of the other way around.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Huh. It never occurred to me that Gen laying his hand over Attolia's was him saying, "I'll handle this one." I mean, I knew he interrupted her and noted how she was apparently okay with that now, but I didn't think of the greater implications. Interesting thought!

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

2) I agree that CoK overlaps KoA and after it. I think it actually overlaps QoA as well though. Just at the very beginning when Sophos is still living with his family on Letnos. Isn't there a reference to Eugenides becoming king?

Ok, I just looked so here's a timeline of sorts:

The Magus is in "captivity" in Eddis --this has happened when Maletesta becomes Sophos's new tutor. (That's half way through QoA, the spring after Eugenides's amputation)
Sounis goes to war with Attolia and Eddis. (QoA)
The world heard that the Thief of Eddis had stolen the Queen of Attolia and meant to marry her.
(end of Queen of Attolia)
Sounis has agreed to marry Agape (this must be during KoA, just before the part where Sophos is reported missing) --Sophos is delighted and writes to his father asking to come home. Within a day of sending the letter, the rebels attack the residence.
From now on out, Sophos is a slave. He must be a slave for the rest of KoA, because he hadn't reappeared when KoA ended. I don't remember how long KoA is in terms of months/seasons/years, but it seems comparable?
The rest of the action takes place after KoA.

[ladraove.livejournal.com]

As for the first point, I always thought that Sounis trusted Gen more than he trusted Attolia, simply because of their history together. So I read it as being for the sake of Sounis' comfort - if he had to swear loyalty, at least he could swear it to his friend. I'm not sure, though.

When it comes from the timeline, I imagined the beginning taking place maybe a year or so after the end of King of Attolia, just because Gen seemed more comfortable in his role as Attolis, and his relationship with Attolia seemed more...stable? I'm not sure what the word would be, it's hard to explain.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

It crossed my mind that it had strongly to do with their friendship too, and possibly it does, but then Gen makes it clear that friendship alone doesn't trump the delicate politics of it all. So I thought, Surely there has to be more to it than that.

[zephyranthia.livejournal.com]

I believe the reason he swears loyalty to Attolis is because Attolia still wants Gen to take more control and further prove his worth as a monarch, and in a matter of such importance it would be somewhat scandalous if the 'dominant' ruler (traditionally the king, I guess?) were to take the backseat. Furthermore, the matter is resolved 'without so much as a blink' because Sounis is at such a disadvantage. At least that was my understanding. Sophos needs help desperately and immediately, which means that politically speaking he has no room to bargain. He can either comply with Attolis's terms or let his country go to ruin.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

True, but that doesn't stop him and the Magus from spending loads of time arguing back and forth over all the details of the alliance, so it struck me that it was never questioned whether he would swear to Attolis or Attolia, or why not both?

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

1. My take: He swears allegiance to Attolis because HE is the sovereign head of state, whatever arrangements Gen and Irene make for its day to day operations. She has also sworn him her allegiance and given him that power. (Remember in KoA when she says, "Then you will unmake decisions?" and he responds with, "You said I could."-That's right before she smacks him.) Eddis will swear loyalty to him to. This is what is so brilliant about how they are approaching the union of the three countries. Gen is the Annux of all three countries but they will be ruled in their domestic and day to day operations by their own rulers. That makes it easier for all three countries to accept. They are not getting a foreign king with an invading army. It is the decisions and plans that affect all three countries together he is responsible for.

2. I thought the same way you did. I always - thought the first part of Sophos' captivity overlapped with KoA. Somewhere during his time as slave is where KoA ends I think.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Wow. Always so much to ponder!

I'm still not sure why it's so important that it be Attolis, though. Why not both of them? I wouldn't have thought twice if Sophos swore loyalty to the Attolian throne in general.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

1) About Sounis swearing to Attolis and not to Attolia:

To me the main point to take from this is that HE'S NOT SWEARING TO BOTH OF THEM OR TO THEIR THRONE AS A WHOLE. And what I took from that is, he's not swearing his country's loyalty to their country. He's swearing his loyalty to Eugenides only, as an individual.

If Sounis had sworn loyalty to BOTH Attolian monarchs (and arguably if he'd sworn only to Attolia, seeing as her role is so bound up in the day to day running of her country), this would have implied that Sounis the country had become subservient to Attolia the country. But I don't think that's how the agreement worked exactly, even if that's the way it plays out in practical terms. Instead, Sounis the king (as an individual, albeit one with certain responsibilities in his person) has become subservient to Eugenides the king (also as an individual, one who already holds some responsibilities and now holds one more). That's it. Nothing more or less than that. The fact that Eugenides is the king of Attolia is almost a secondary matter, and Sounis owes no loyalty to Attolia the country or the queen, beyond what Eugenides will and has asked of him. He owes loyalty only to Eugenides and his heirs. Does that make sense? It's sort of a subtle difference in my mind so it's a bit difficult to get across.

To say it another way, the difference in my mind is: instead of Sounis swearing loyalty to the role of the throne of the country Attolia, they created a new position, higher than the throne of Attolia (call it High King or Annux), and hired the king of Attolia to fill it. Then they had Sounis swear to him individually, in his new role as Annux, someone above all three countries. The fact that Irene continues to be the main day-to-day ruler of Attolia solidifies this view for me. She's in charge of the country. He's in charge of the peninsula. Attolis is already above Attolia, formally speaking, as she's answerable to him as the Queen to his King. Now Eddis and Sounis will be answerable to him in a similar way too.

That's how I saw it. Does that make sense to anyone else?

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Oh, it does make sense! Truckloads of sense. In fact, you've done a good job of articulating the conclusion I've come to by degrees, via all these great comments. Thanks so much!

[purplecat]

This is pretty much exactly how I understood it.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

The Thief takes place entirely in summer; The Queen of Attolia starts in summer one year later and finishes in spring not quite two years after that; and The King of Attolia takes place entirely in the following summer, making for 3 full years (approximately) since The Thief. Sophos's captivity in A Conspiracy of Kings must begin some time before the end of the same summer, then, because it's already news in The King of Attolia.

As for when it ends, Sophos describes the way the slaves' work changes for the winter season ("Our jobs changed for the winter season. We worked on indoor tasks more often, repairing tools, patching clothes, fetching in loads of wood for the household." p. 59). Then, when he and the magus are in Attolia, it appears to be summer again ("The long summer twilight was in the sky outside, but the lamps were lit in the small dining room, casting a warm glow over the diners reclined on their couches." p. 190).

I see that as evidence that, all told, A Conspiracy of Kings spans one year, if you're counting by seasons and the exact dates don't matter so much. This means that by the end of the series so far it has been approximately 4 full years since the events of The Thief.

I also learned that my Kindle version will provide page numbers for me if I copy and paste the words. Cool!

Edit: Also, this is such a cool discussion, and I'm glad that you asked these questions because I think reading everyone else's opinions has helped me solidify my own ideas about the oath-swearing thing. We should do another reread of these books so we can ask more questions like these!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Good detective work. You rock.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

This is really helpful. I've never been able to keep track of exactly how many years pass. :)

[appellations.livejournal.com]

1. Because Gen *is* king of Attolia. For all of Gen's whining and petulance there is no doubt on anybody's part that he is king and the one who was in control. And in my opinion (which could be horribly wrong because I've not read the book in ages): (a) Sophos' loyalty to Gen as a person and king is unquestioning; (b) the Magus respects the heck out of Gen's abilities; (c) Eddis doesn't doubt *King* Gen c.f. QoA and the when he's being honest you'll know; but most importantly, (d) Attolia defers to Gen. Whatever appears to be the case. Because he is king. All of them are bound to him in a way that is far beyond mere politics and treaties.

p.298 of CoK: "He pledged his men to Attolis's armies and his treasuries to Attolis's support."
But only before this struggle went on in KoA:
p.19 of KoA: '"He is the Captain of your Guard. Your well-being is the object of his employment", the Queen said. "Your Guard," said the king. "Your Guard," insisted the Queen.'
p. 374: '"My Queen," he said. "My King," she said back. Only those closest saw him nod his rueful acceptance."

So to me, for all the advantages there are for Sophos and Eddis to be swearing their allegience to Attolis (makes sense, more palatable, etc.) the only thing that matters is that Gen (vs. Attolis) is king of Attolia. It goes together, so there's no *Gen the person* or *Gen the sovereign* but Gen their King. Which sets this up all very well for the next book because I'm pretty sure Gen will turn into a monster all whilst yawning on his throne.

2. I gave up on timelines long ago. I'm pretty sure Megan is laughing at us.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Somehow two of your statements melded in my mind, creating a mental image of Megan laughing at us whilst sitting on her throne. It was weird. And really funny.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Popping my head in to say: who made your icon, and is it gakkable? I feel the need to have it....

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I sized it down from an image I stole from someone else, so steal away!

[kulai-raito.livejournal.com]

I also wonder about that question too! But I viewed it like many other here. I always had the impression that Attolia is delightfully happy inside to see Gen taking responsibility as this proves and shoves him roles to being a ruler and she inside knows Attolia rules all three nation haha Attolia wins, ok not in super literal sense. You can just almost feel her pushing Gen to rule and wants him to take charge as she always wanted.

Now all this means is that Nahuseresh just needs to concentrating on one person if he wants to take over the pennisula and we know Gen is looking forward to that day :)

Timeline I believe everything Sophos story telling was during QoA and KoA or I say more KoA time and then the rest is after KoA.

In another retrospect, I have been wondering, does Attolia still wear her Hephestia headband anymore? There has been no mentioned of it since KoA I believe. Has she taken it off for retirement now that she isn't ruling alone and that Gen is King? If she did wear it still, I think Sophos would have mentioned it in his narrative besides her being cool and all but nothing about that I believe.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Hello to the new people leaving comments!! Glad to have you here.