Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

It would guarantee both of them a trip to the psychiatrists if they made a match like this in our world. And Irene is understandingly furious with him for stalking her. As a child, I would be angry if my parents decide to track everything I do, because it would be a serious invasion of privacy, which is exactly what Gen did.

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lsellersfic.livejournal.com

Gen's ability to penetrate through her guards must have been terrifying, since she had very real concerns about assassinations and, at that point, on the haziest ideas where Gen's loyalties might lie and how easily his services might be bought by one of her enemies.

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rosalui.livejournal.com

*cough*

I don't disagree that it's unhealthy, but then, I'm biased.

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Arguably, she loved him even before the spectacular mess begin, but the again, so did Gen.

Hmmm. Gen definitely loved her before he kidnapped her, but did she love him? I think she found it tremendously - encouraging, for want of a better word - to hear that she was a person who could be loved, with the whole "words dropped like water into the dry earth" line. But did she love him? I don't know. Like you say, she'd just been kidnapped by him, and every time he crossed her mind - for years - it was to assess how much of a threat he was to her. I think she let herself love him after that, but I don't think she loved him already at that point.

And I'm not sure she had Stockholm Syndrome, but I do think she assessed all angles of the marriage before agreeing to it, including the political ones. The political ones may have even been her primary concern. And I think it's because of her single-mindedness, for so many years, toward the political repercussions, that she doesn't begrudge him for kidnapping her. She's done much worse for her country.

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agentmaly.livejournal.com

Yes, I think that up until very close to the end of QoA she doesn't love him - she's preoccupied with him. I think Attolia respects Gen's skill, and we're told in the narration that he touches a part of her she's been shutting out and isn't comfortable discovering still exists. That's why she slaps him in the throne room scene - I don't have the book to hand, but my memory is that it's not because she's offended, but rather because there's something in that smile that pulls her the wrong way. She doesn't want to be drawn in by the thief's charm, or his cheek. I think that's actually something that acts as a barrier to Attolia forming a relationship with Eugenides - that he's not always serious. You notice she is able to trust and even feel close to people who are of a steady, serious bent: Teleus, Relius, Phresine. They're dependable, and they make their intentions clear to her.

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Yes - that's a really good point. I like that Gen's the complete opposite.

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Hm, interesting. See, I definitely see Irene as loving Gen before he kidnapped her. I don't think she *knew* she loved him, but those feelings were still there and growing unconsciously. She wasn't familiar with what love feels like, so she couldn't identify it; she also didn't believe herself to be capable of love. But her own conscious thoughts on the matter aside, I think there was growing love --attachment, emotional investment in him, basically caring about him. Her actions in those years show her feelings better than her thoughts do.

"every time he crossed her mind - for years - it was to assess how much of a threat he was to her."
Yes... but by the time he kidnapped her, she had been thinking of him as something other than a threat for quite a while. That break happened as she stood in his cell, looking down at him --when she suddenly realized how vulnerable he was, how young. That was when she started thinking of him as something other than a threat. (Not that she didn't still understand him to threaten her, but she also saw him as human, a person... Which mirrors the way he sees her, actually).

I start to sense her becoming emotionally invested in Gen after the chopychop but well before he kidnapped her. The clues that make me read it that way start with the way (as she admits later) she cried for him, she empathized with him --and the pain she'd caused him. She also suffered from guilt about having hurt him. All of those are more about her painfully reconnecting with her humanity than really loving him, but her uncharacteristic temper tantrum when she finds out he is supposedly deep in a relationship with Eddis? It's overtly because he's now more of a threat to her than ever, but let's be real, that's also jealousy. And not just because Eddis has a loyal servant. No, because Eddis has a loyal *lover* (snicker :P Companionship, love, something she wants from Gen!).

Her feelings are not totally baseless, too. Even if she experienced his gifts as barbs, they're still courtship presents --earrings, jewelry.

The most telling moment for me is when she wakes up at night and doesn't know whether she wants the shadows in her room to be empty or not. If he were really there, he would either kill her or ~~love her in all the meanings of the word bahaha~~ at least assuage her loneliness. Someone who can look back at her as a person in a way no one in her court can, even if it's to condemn her (when he smiles at her it's genuine, wholly unlike any other in her court?). Her desire for him is all mixed up in her fear of him and her maybe desire for this just to end, for death and relief and closure, but it's still desire there too.

Now, I would never believe those other layers aren't there -- about power and her being a queen and wanting someone as loyal to her as he is to Eddis, and fear of his being a threat --but I think the human layer of that love becoming more and more present is there too.

Interestingly enough, I find it easier to experience the progression of Irene falling for Gen than vice versa. That moment when she stands in the doorway to his room is when she realizes she loves him, but she does before, even if she doesn't allow herself to see it.

"I think it's because of her single-mindedness, for so many years, toward the political repercussions, that she doesn't begrudge him for kidnapping her. She's done much worse for her country."

I wholly agree.

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

I actually was thinking that was a possibility the last time I reread - but I keep getting sidelined by her clinical reactions up until that point. Which are of course part of her public office - she can't show emotion in front of the Mede - but the way she accepted the proposal, the way she allowed the Mede to run the show when they rescued her - she was just so detached. And so I read it as wavering and not as in love. I definitely see how it could be read differently, though.

after the chopychop Is it terrible that I laughed at this? And I see what you mean, re: the emotional reactions! I will have to reread to see if I change my mind when I do.

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after the chopychop Is it terrible that I laughed at this? hahaha no I giggled when I wrote it. I'm pretty sure we're horrible people ;)

It's interesting how much of the experience of the book is shaped by what we take to be true, don't you find? The filter we read it with. I find I can somewhat intentionally change the experience based on what I take as my starting assumption or the things I remind myself of throughout the books. For instance, even though in QoA Attolia seems very detached, if I remember she's lately been crying in her sleep because of what she did to Gen, that changes it a bit.

But I think all of Irene's reactions are coded doubly in QoA, where she could be reacting with preoccupation because she's afraid of Gen (maybe even hates him) or preoccupation because she cares about him (and wants him). Ultimately I think both are true and valid, especially the fear and the wanting, but the way you read it depends on what's in your mind.

I have the exact same thing you have with Attolia, only I have it with Gen's side of their relationship. Some people are (apparently) really able to experience all of the Queen of Attolia with the thought in mind that Gen loves Attolia throughout the whole thing. I find that really hard to do. There just aren't enough hooks for me to hang that feeling on. If someone who can do that could give me an explanation of how they experience different moments, that would be awesome, because I find it really hard.

I also tend to read with the experience I'm being given (I try to re-experience Harry Potter, say, as close as possible to if I didn't know what was coming next). So in KoA, I get all embarrassed and concerned on Gen's behalf when he's making himself look like a fool in front of Costis. After hearing from Sounisians who were sniggering up their sleeve the whole time at Costis's expense, waiting for him to discover his mistake, I've been keeping that in mind on my recent re-read. It's quite interesting. Less uncomfortable to read.

Edited Date: 3/19/13 04:23 am (UTC)

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I've read King of Attolia more times than I can count, and I still feel embarrassed and concerned on Gen's behalf. Once you've experienced those feelings in real life, the feeling in the book is just too acute (especially with the addition of the scene where Gen cries from homesickness). Even if Gen had the upper hand the whole time, I think he suffered quite a bit. At least, he was not enjoying himself enough for me to snigger up my sleeve.

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This, exactly. I would point out all the things I agree with in this comment, but I would end up quoting the entire thing.

Reminding myself that he does have some control, though, has been interesting. Even though he is highly uncomfortable, he is playing it up on purpose at the same time.

Edited Date: 3/19/13 08:05 pm (UTC)

From:

aged-crone.livejournal.com

" keep getting sidelined by her clinical reactions up until that point. Which are of course part of her public office - she can't show emotion in front of the Mede - but the way she accepted the proposal, the way she allowed the Mede to run the show when they rescued her - she was just so detached. And so I read it as wavering and not as in love."

I didn't see her as detached - I saw her as biding her time, because she knew there wasn't a bloomin' thing she could do at that point, with Mede soldiers all around. She immediately made sure Gen was safe, didn't tell who the MoW was, and concealed what she was doing by taking advantage of the Mede's smug opinion about women.

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Keep it PG now. (this post was so hilarious--I love how you describe the events in the book)

I agree about it being easier to see Attolia falling for Gen--but we get a nice, close look into her brain while it's all happening, and Gen doesn't let us see anything. I think we are meant to react like Eddis: "What, Gen, you're in love with ATTOLIA? Well...you've always been strange...weirdo...I guess we can arrange something"

I'm not sure if she was only "painfully reconnecting with her humanity" after the chopychop (snigger snigger). I mean, I think she definitely was doing just that, but I also think was in love with him at the time, just in a less obvious way. But if she didn't love him at all, then she would have never felt experienced such an upheaval, so arguably she was in love with him even before chopychop. If not exactly in love, then definitely romantically intrigued--I mean, it's hard when a man waltzes through your room in the middle of the night while you sleep and leaves gifts without igniting SOMETHING. He gets her attention, that's for sure.

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it's hard when a man waltzes through your room in the middle of the night while you sleep and leaves gifts without igniting SOMETHING. He gets her attention, that's for sure.

Bahaha yes, I agree.

It's funny, I'd always thought her feelings for him came after the chopychop (baha I don't regret the use of this phrase one bit), but it's true she also stares at him throughout basically the entire short story Destruction. ~~*wiggles eyebrows suggestively*~~

Keeping it PG, la di da...

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I think you've been spending too much time on that tumblr of yours

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aged-crone.livejournal.com

"I mean, it's hard when a man waltzes through your room in the middle of the night while you sleep and leaves gifts without igniting SOMETHING."

Speaking authoritatively about that, are you? :)

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Lips are sealed.

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That is my point. She loved him, but maybe not consciously.

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aged-crone.livejournal.com

"her uncharacteristic temper tantrum when she finds out he is supposedly deep in a relationship with Eddis? It's overtly because he's now more of a threat to her than ever, but let's be real, that's also jealousy."

That reminds me of the scene in KoA where Gen shreds his bedhanging, gouges his furniture, and generally flings things. Only one of his attendants figures out why he did that. In the same way, I see her temper tantrum as a sudden flame of jealousy which everybody, including herself, can interpret as oh-no-now-he's-a-threat."

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We have a lot of discussions on how messed up their relationship is, but I really don't think Gen and Attolia's relationship is as ridiculous and abusive as we might think it is. Certainly the hand incident is going to stop us in our tracks, but KoA cemented their marriage and relationship as relatively healthy. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage, and even the best of them have some strange things going on. Marriage in itself is just weird. The more you're around someone, the less lovely they become, so really Marriage is basically a recipe for disaster. It's meant to be absolutely crazy. Also it's a looooong journey, and Gen and Attolia have only been married for a few months, or at least not more than a year. They've barely begun to live with each other.

I'm not sure their relationship fits under stockholm syndrome, mainly because those victims form an attachment during the length of their capture. Neither Gen and Attolia were kidnapped by the other for a long enough time for a stockholm-effect, and they didn't even spend much time in each other's company. In fact, most of Gen and Attolia's feelings develop while they're AWAY from each other...which is a little strange. Furthermore, stockholme syndrome is characterized by an irrational attachment and mistaking abuse for acts of kindness. Gen and Attolia might be messed up as a couple can possibly be, but I don't think that they're attachment to one another is irrational, and I also don't think they mistake each other's abuse for love or kindness. Gen certainly doesn't think Attolia's showing affection when she chops off his hand.

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I thought that this was not the case for the syndrome.If I remember correctly, the victims formed an attachment to their captors because of 'kindness', such as not killing them, and not mistaking acts of abuse for kindness. My interpretation could be wrong though; my memory is as good as a goldfish's.

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Whoopsies. You are right. I misread wikipedia (he he he). They misinterpret a LACK of a abuse as kindness, not abuse itself...

I just perused an article about stockholm syndrome (a real one, not wiki), and although it's a lot more complicated than I originally thought, I remain unconvinced. Stockholm is basically when the captor emotionally manipulates the victim into forming an attachment by forcing their dependance. I don't think either Attolia or Gen were emotionally manipulating each other to any extent. They were both in control of their thoughts 100% of the time, and although they were dependent on each other in technical terms, I think they remain pretty much independent characters throughout the book.

While we're on the subject of Stockholm Syndrome, I might recommend the book The Hollow Kingdom by Claire B. Dunkle. I don't know if it's been mentioned on Sounis before (it probably has), but THAT book definitely has some Stockholm-y stuff going on.

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